FIA Rally Working Group: the future of WRC and the rally sport

[HKSjbg]

Mirek, try not to get so offended that someone other than you does not know what you know and is merely putting out suggestions. This is after all meant to be a friendly exchange of ideas between like-minded motorsport fans, nothing serious. We are not the FIA working group so anything discussed here has no bearing on it at all.

I do however appreciate the knowledge you have shared here, it is all interesting information to find out.

Man, where have you been in past two decades? 90% of all 4WD rally cars produced since 2007 (first one to be Peugeot 207 S2000) have had no center differential. Most of S2000, all R5, all Rally2, all RRC, all WRC 2011. And yes, they do use 1:1 torque split for all the time except when they pull the handbrake for which there is a release clutch.

I genuinely find this bizarre to get my head round, but also fascinating info to find out. My understanding of a locked diff (sorry, it’s still a diff if it’s splitting torque) is that when turning corners the front/rear speed difference, as well as the left/right speed difference of the wheels would create unwanted slippage to the point of wheels ‘skipping’. It’s been a long time since my university days learning about powertrains and I wasn’t paying much attention back then clearly!

0,5 mm will add roughly 3% of power. Completely useless modification which nobody will notice. It's just an extra cost with zero benefit.

Best to just leave it be as I thought then, I don’t even have an issue with outright speed of Rally2s anyway.

The suspension travel is also a major safety feature. Why do you think we have had by far most deadly accidents with 4WD gr.N cars?

You assume that it is common knowledge that most deadly rally accidents are by 4WD Group N cars? I would like to see evidence of this being the case and the reason for it.

Welcome to 2005 and the initial S2000 regulations. Do you know what the clever heads in Peugeot found back then and what other teams immediately copied? They found that the mechanical central LSD brings close to zero benefits in handling over having no center diff at all and only consumes power via friction. Nearly all following S2000 cars had no center diff. The R5, Rally2, RRC and WRC 2011 followed suit. The center diff returned only when the active one was allowed again in 2017.

Funnily enough I’ve never worked at Peugeot Sport so no, I didn’t know this. Again it’s fascinating to find out that info, not widely available or reported to my knowledge.

Sir, you have no idea what you are talking about. Let's start with an explanation what sequential gearbox means. As the name suggests with such gearbox the gears can be changed only one by one in a sequence. It doesn't matter if you do that by paddles or by a stick, by hydraulics, electrics, pneumatics or steel wires.

Never said I did. Never claimed to be an expert. And yes I know what a sequential gearbox means, colloquially a stick operated sequential gearbox is referred to as a sequential gearbox and a paddle operated sequential gearbox referred to as a paddle shift - even though a paddle shift may also refer to an epicyclic gearbox or some form of automated manual gearbox with paddle shifters. But don’t let that stop you from getting up on your high-horse.

Six gears over five. First let me tell you that all WRC cars (with the only exception probably being the 2011 ones) have so wide power band that even 5-speed gearbox is enough to keep you driving in the ideal rpms. More gears mean more mass, more innertia, more parts, more complexity, higher price. The 2.0 WRC cars with super high turbo boost could use even 4-speed gearbox (and P307 actually did). The reason for using more gears in a WRC cars is basically only reliability because the steps from one gear to another are smaller and the gear shifting is therefore smoother. Anyway there are no mechanical problems with the current 5-speed geaboxes, so why going for 6-speed? For spectators such change don't matter, far majority of them won't notice anything.

With exception of the 2011 ones? So surely the Rally2s also don’t have a big enough power band for 5-speed? The 307 was the ONLY one to make use of a 4-speed box and its fair to say that didn’t turn out well.

[typhoon]

If WRC wants to attract more people it needs a better story.

Spot on!

So to conclude, in my opinion there really first needs to be some fundamental things decided before you go into details. The important thing is to capture the essence of rally and preserve that and then find a format and presentation that works for a larger audience.

When Red Bull took over the series, they invested a lot of efforts to tell an "epic story" and it worked very well, since they got a global TV distribution which was impressive, compared to today's figures. Just remember how Tanak's dive into the Mexican lake got viral basically everywhere!!

Now, you can tell everyone how funny and entertaining Serderidis is in the service park, but no one is going to listen to it. We desperately need to bring back the early '00 "duels" and to do so you need similar, more affordable cars that will give the chance to have 4-cars works teams that will bring lots of young and expert drivers, all hungry for victory.

Imagine having Tanak, Rovanpera, Oliver Solberg, Neuville, Mikkelsen, Katsuta, Solans, Kajetanovic, etc.... all battling for the top-spot until the last stage with similar cars! It would mean a lot of drama, plot-twists on TV, some smile and everyone showing their character. It would be epic and super-interesting for the broadcasters.

But, again, everyone is talking about points, more expensive cars, etc.

You know what? Without a story well "sold" by the WRC Promoter (which right now I have to say is doing quite a poor job on all POV to say the least), you can even bring back Group B cars with Ari Vatanen and Michele Mouton and nobody would care anyway.

[wyler]

When Red Bull took over the series, they invested a lot of efforts to tell an "epic story" and it worked very well, since they got a global TV distribution which was impressive, compared to today's figures. Just remember how Tanak's dive into the Mexican lake got viral basically everywhere!!

Now, you can tell everyone how funny and entertaining Serderidis is in the service park, but no one is going to listen to it. We desperately need to bring back the early '00 "duels" and to do so you need similar, more affordable cars that will give the chance to have 4-cars works teams that will bring lots of young and expert drivers, all hungry for victory.

Imagine having Tanak, Rovanpera, Oliver Solberg, Neuville, Mikkelsen, Katsuta, Solans, Kajetanovic, etc.... all battling for the top-spot until the last stage with similar cars! It would mean a lot of drama, plot-twists on TV, some smile and everyone showing their character. It would be epic and super-interesting for the broadcasters.

But, again, everyone is talking about points, more expensive cars, etc.

You know what? Without a story well "sold" by the WRC Promoter (which right now I have to say is doing quite a poor job on all POV to say the least), you can even bring back Group B cars with Ari Vatanen and Michele Mouton and nobody would care anyway.

agreed. the only thing i cannot really get is how a more affordable car will make tanak and solans or kjetanovic on the same level.
can't see how the suggested "rally2+" will make the new category more competitive...i think the same 5 people will battle for the win.

[typhoon]

agreed. the only thing i cannot really get is how a more affordable car will make tanak and solans or kjetanovic on the same level.
can't see how the suggested "rally2+" will make the new category more competitive...i think the same 5 people will battle for the win.

Basically you can have the top-5 as always battling for the win, but having closer battles for a podium finish or points. This would be drama all around.

[wyler]

Basically you can have the top-5 as always battling for the win, but having closer battles for a podium finish or points. This would be drama all around.

i don't buy it. i think it's more a hope than a real possibility. the ten "rally1 orbit" drivers will stay on the top ten basically, a couple of replacements maybe, 'cause a skoda driver will beat munster, other than that i really don't see drivers outside rally1 orbit competing for podiums but would be glad to be proven wrong.

[Rallyper]

However, no matter the details (and I think Mirek explained it well) consesus still might be that Rally2(+) cars very well indeed could be the new WRC era.

Benefits:
Better competition
More teams
More top drivers
Lower costs
Same excitement

[WRCStan]

However, no matter the details (and I think Mirek explained it well) consesus still might be that Rally2(+) cars very well indeed could be the new WRC era.

Yeah, if you just skip over the details that it's already been ruled out by the current manufacturers, no new manufacturers have asked for it, and carbon ICE without hybrid has been ruled out by the FIA; it could just be the future.

[seb_sh]

Yeah, if you just skip over the details that it's already been ruled out by the current manufacturers, no new manufacturers have asked for it, and carbon ICE without hybrid has been ruled out by the FIA; it could just be the future.

I think he was referring to the actual technical details of the Rally2+ or whatever. Even so what you say is right but what if MSport finally runs out of money and Hyundai decides they'd rather build a hydrogen powered Le Mans car, does Toyota build 6 cars, paint 3 blue and say it's Toyota vs Subaru WRC?

[denkimi]

No matter the type of cars, privateers will never have an equal chance against the manufacturer backed. The difference may not be very big, but there will always be a difference due to budgets.

[Walach]

I think he was referring to the actual technical details of the Rally2+ or whatever. Even so what you say is right but what if MSport finally runs out of money and Hyundai decides they'd rather build a hydrogen powered Le Mans car, does Toyota build 6 cars, paint 3 blue and say it's Toyota vs Subaru WRC?

Maybe then will FIA & promoter finally start making some proper changes instead of creating working groups & pissing around with points system while patting themselves on the back