WRC main class in 2025

[AnttiL]

Totally agree. Say that Rally2 can replace is bullshit. And the official team would be allways better than privateers after 2/3 rounds. People dream a lot with something that can’t happen. We need more manufacters in top class, not cut the class.

Well said. And the sad fact is that going to Rally2 would not give us more manufacturer teams at the moment. It would be again just Hyundai, M-Sport and soon Toyota. There are still cars for Skoda, VW, Citroen, Peugeot (and, god forbid, Proton) but without intention to invest in the series through the manufacturer's budget.

[wyler]

funny fact is:

what is described as r5+/rally2+, is basically a wrc/rally1.

[AnttiL]

funny fact is:

what is described as r5+/rally2+, is basically a wrc/rally1.

You couldn't be more wrong. Especially when we are talking about Rally1 cars which are tubular space frame prototypes while Rally2 (and WRC) are built from a production chassis. The engines are quite different, and so are the transmissions and suspensions. Rally1 and 2017 WRC has much improved safety and the transmission is designed to withstand higher power from the engine.

Performance wise a Rally2 car is probably nowadays close to a 2011 WRC car. But it's still more costly to run a 2011 WRC car in a rally.

[wyler]

You couldn't be more wrong. Especially when we are talking about Rally1 cars which are tubular space frame prototypes while Rally2 (and WRC) are built from a production chassis. The engines are quite different, and so are the transmissions and suspensions. Rally1 and 2017 WRC has much improved safety and the transmission is designed to withstand higher power from the engine.

Performance wise a Rally2 car is probably nowadays close to a 2011 WRC car. But it's still more costly to run a 2011 WRC car in a rally.

come on mate, don't be so literal.
I didn't mean car are equal. I mean that building a r5+ is not simply add some power, but it's more like designing a new tier car, that will be closer to the top category, with similar expenses to the top category.

you said it yourself: "the transmission is designed to withstand higher power from the engine". if you make a much more powerfull engine to an r5, then you have to adapt all the car accordingly, and that r5+ will be very different from an r5 (and similar to a "top tier" car - if you dislike "wrc-rally1")

[AnttiL]

come on mate, don't be so literal.
I didn't mean car are equal. I mean that building a r5+ is not simply add some power, but it's more like designing a new tier car, that will be closer to the top category, with similar expenses to the top category.

you said it yourself: "the transmission is designed to withstand higher power from the engine". if you make a much more powerfull engine to an r5, then you have to adapt all the car accordingly, and that r5+ will be very different from an r5 (and similar to a "top tier" car - if you dislike "wrc-rally1")

Correct. But there may be a middle ground where Rally2 gets more power and reinforced parts (like maybe driveshafts, brakes and shocks or something) but the cost is still lower than a WRC/Rally1.

[skarderud]

An R5+ has 2 be slightly more power and aero, not new diff, shocks etc.

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[wyler]

Correct. But there may be a middle ground where Rally2 gets more power and reinforced parts (like maybe driveshafts, brakes and shocks or something) but the cost is still lower than a WRC/Rally1.

agreed, but if you reinforce an r5 to become similar to an old spec wrc -as u said before- in a way is still a wrc! : )

anyway i'm convinced too there can be ways to spend less on a top tier car, just don't believe upgrading an r5 will work. it will take to design a new spec.

[RS]

Well said. And the sad fact is that going to Rally2 would not give us more manufacturer teams at the moment. It would be again just Hyundai, M-Sport and soon Toyota. There are still cars for Skoda, VW, Citroen, Peugeot (and, god forbid, Proton) but without intention to invest in the series through the manufacturer's budget.

I would be surprised if at least Citroen and Skoda didn’t step up in that case, even if they had to pretend it wasn’t a works programme by doing it through private teams.

In terms of what they were meant to do (attract more manufacturers) the Rally1 cars have been a failure. Although I probably would be impressed with them in real life, I don’t really like the concept of them. Not based on a road car chassis, not based on a road car engine. The ‘Ford Puma’ is not really a Ford Puma at all.

The aero is too much. It looks silly and they spend a lot of money and time changing it all the time. Some guys here said the switch to a spaceframe chassis would save them money, yet these cars are more expensive than ever.

I’m not even convinced they require that much finesse to drive (big balls yes) Sometimes it looks like the drivers just fling the car at the corner and let the immense power and aero do the work.

The gap between Rally2 and Rally1 is too big, such that teams don’t want to take a risk on promoting anyone from the lower category and they just end up recycling old drivers..

Realise I’m probably gonna get flamed for saying the above, but it’s just my opinions/personal taste. I preferred the pre 2017 World Rally Cars, even if the speed was less.

[mknight]

Rally1 (barely) kept Ford and Hyundai from leaving. They were about 3 years too late to keep Citroen or to get Skoda to join (Skoda was attending the technical rules meetings in I believe 2018 with the interest of joining).

Imo Rally2+ could keep about same number of manus, but certainly won't attract new big ones.

Fully electric is the only thing that can attract new manus. Adding artificial sound is the only real obstacle, but seeing how super complicated and advanced rules they did for hybrid power delivery I don't see it as difficult to specify sound levels and their relation to throttle/brakes/liftoff.

With regards to rest of rules there should be limits on power draw from battery (similar to restrictor size now). Most of the other rules are not engine related (aero, difs, suspension travel)
Battery should, at least at first, be same for all.
The size should be enough to make a single stage of up to 40km, but not much more. With focus on fast charging (400 kW ish) of a few mins at multiple stops. That way you also don't have many cars at the charging stop at same time. With 10 ish top cars you will have 3-4 charging at same time.

Before people bring up F1....F1s image is "the best" car with no real relation to production cars, looking completely alien. Rally car image is "same" car as you can buy on normal roads.

[denkimi]

Fully electric is the only thing that can attract new manus.

You are missing the actual point here.

What attracts manufacturers is publicity. What creates publicity is fans watching. And what attracts fans is spectacle and drama.

Hyundai happily pays much more to sponsor the football WK in qatar than they do to sponsor rally, because it gives them more exposure.

Going electric, as electric cars are today, will just cause a big loss in spectators, making it even less attractive to manus.

Rally shouldn't care too much bout manufacturers, they must put what fans want in the first place. Lots of fans will attract sponsors and manufacturers, not the other way around. That's what made group B such a succes.