What about group "B" ??

[MrJan]

I was watching an MSA video last night and motorsport as a whole isn't even in the top four most dangerous sports. Bear in mind that on a half marathon in England the other year 4 people died, that doesn't happen in rallying but you don't hear people crying on about the dangers of running. It's just not fair.

For the record check out Group B on Youtube to see how dangerous it was. The cars were nuts compared to the well designed WRC cars of today

[jonkka]

And the absolute pinnacle of the madness was driving those monsters on full tilt between a human wall - as seen in Portugal and San Remo. It's a small wonder how drivers were able to do that, in-car footage defies belief.

[RicKT]

Hi, I'm new here and I have a lot of questions. First, I heard about a group B in rally that were like supercar. Can anyone tell me more about this? Why was it stopped? What was the drivers and cars that did the best performance back then? Will it ever have suche a group again? I'd like to know all what you guys have to say.

Thanks, Vincent

Hi Vincent.

Take a look at the below to get a true idea on what was going on..

The powerful sound track on the video gives the feeling what it was like.....

As said above, a major factor was the amount of people on the stages standing on outside of bends etc etc... and the power of the Group B cars...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XrJGPda5uGE


Also..

This below clip shows you the types of speed and spectator issues.... there are a few famous clips in there, which are famous for the WRONG reasons.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XrJGPda5uGE

and below....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=44iib...eature=related

Hopefully these videos will answer a few questions for you.

cheers

Rick

[ShiftingGears]

They were dangerous? I heard about accident yes... but isint it a bit normal after all this is a race no? Rallying is dangerous.. Was there anything espacialy dangerous with group B?

Group B would've lived on at least a few more years if Portugal had competent spectator enforcement, and if Toivonens Lancia had been protected by a skidplate maybe he probably would've survived. And if Toivonen had not been suffering a fever during the time around the '86 Tour de Corse maybe the crash would never have happened. In retrospect, those unfortunate and probably preventable events coupled with driver concerns from people like Toivonen put the writing on the wall for Group B.

[Iskald]

Group B would've lived on at least a few more years if Portugal had competent spectator enforcement, and if Toivonens Lancia had been protected by a skidplate maybe he probably would've survived. And if Toivonen had not been suffering a fever during the time around the '86 Tour de Corse maybe the crash would never have happened. In retrospect, those unfortunate and probably preventable events coupled with driver concerns from people like Toivonen put the writing on the wall for Group B.

I think you are simplyfying and speculating here. The accident in Portugal 1986 with Santos (Ford RS200) ploughing into and killing several spectators and a couple of months later Henri Toivonen/Sergio Cresto`s fatal accident in Corsica, were true enough two of the main arguments against Group B. But there were other grave accidents as well. Attilio Bettega had a fatal crash in Corsica 1985, in a RWD Lancia 037, but this was also a Group B car. Marc Surer was severely injured and his codriver killed in a Ford RS200 and Ari Vatanen nearly died crashing his Peugeot 205T16 in Argentina 1986.

Talking to former rally drivers from this period today I think you will find that many of them found the Group B cars extremely fascinating, but also probably were scared ****less of these monsterous machines while driving them. Group B actually had the writing on the wall nearly before the cars started rallying.

[N.O.T]

I think the reasons they stopped it were 70% politics from F1As dogs and 30% because of the cars themselves.

[Meeve]

Thanks to you all for answering my questions. But I still have a few more.. What was the best car then? Most of you talked about Peugot and Ford RS200 is that it? I heard about some car consrtructor like Audi won a "double" what is that? Why was Lancia not trustiong 4WD when audi proved it was the best? thanks

[Josti]

I think the reasons they stopped it were 70% politics from F1As dogs and 30% because of the cars themselves.

Yes, and if I remember correctly, Pentti once said that Bernie Ecclestone (and maybe some other F1 equivelants) played a role in FIA's decision of banning Group B. Rally was really grabbing hold on F1 in populairity those days.

Anyway, Great cars, probably too dangerous, but things around the cars weren't organized at it's best either. But the sound is just adorable...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qefKc...eature=related

[MrJan]

Thanks to you all for answering my questions. But I still have a few more.. What was the best car then? Most of you talked about Peugot and Ford RS200 is that it? I heard about some car consrtructor like Audi won a "double" what is that? Why was Lancia not trustiong 4WD when audi proved it was the best? thanks

I believe Audi were the most succesful as they were at the forefront of the Group B era. Lancia eventually moved to 4wd with the Delta S4 (the car that Toivonen was driving when he died) Ford and MG arrived on the scene a lot later and I don't think either had enough time to make real headlines so it's the Quattro and 205T16 that are best known.

I'd just like to add that my knowledge of Group B results are sketchy so others are likely to provide more reliable comment.

[Mirek]

Audi Quattro was first 4WD but it had also many issues, unreliable engine in the first variants and in all variants a lot of understeering because of longitudinal engine infront of front axle. They used small wheelbase and long car - big polar moments of innertia, especialy front as I mentioned before. The first versions also had wrong engine volume which made it too heavy (multiplied by turbo coefficient they were only few ccm above an engine limit for lighter car). Audi was all the time a classic conception car with engine in the front. In the very end they used semi-automatic Porsche gearbox with double clutch and sequential shifting, something like DSG nowadays. In 1986 they tested mid-engine prototype even in our county - Czechoslowakia - that days behind an iron curtain, very close to Zlin in guarded testing area. There are some photos of the prototype from that secret test.

Oposite to that Peugeot 205 T16 and later Lancia Delta S4, Ford RS200 or MG Metro 6R4 were built as racing monsters just from scratch. They used mid-engine concept with fuel tanks under crew seats which gave them ideal weight distribution and minimum polar moments of innertia. But using turbochargers, exhaust and engine so close to plastic fuel tanks was dangerous. From that point of view Metro was less dangerous since it had naturaly aspirated engine.
It is hard to say which car was the best. From RWD it was clearly Lancia 037 but from 4WD my vote goes to Peugeot 205 T16. Lancia Delta S4 was more sophisticated but very hard to drive.