S2000 & Group N, The future of rallying?

[Sulland]

Thanks for that impressive insight into the technicalities of the engine world !

If your memory serves you right the curve and drivability of a S2000R car is not that bad, with 2500-3000 rpm of ok HP and Torque.

Of course this will improve with 500 ccm more, but then we are talking a different ballgame. Not being able to crossuse btw WTCC type cars and rally cars. We are for the S2500 over to a V6 engine most likely, that few manufacturers have in stock.

I think the best way ahead is to go ahead and say that S2000 is the basis for the new WRC car, and if we need it to have a turbo, then let that car decide drivetrain ++ so it is dimensioned to take the power.
But I could also live with that S2000 NA will be top of the pops in the future.

Engineers are a strange breed, they can move limits - also for a 2 ltr NA engine !

In some years new ways of pushing our cars will be here anyway, be it Hydrogen cell, E-85 or something else !!

PS.
Would love to see a special class for McRae R4 type of spaceframe cars, also in Int rally, the sound must be beautiful !!

[Mirek]

Sulland: There is no big problem to make 320+ Hp from just 2 litre n/a engine but the car would cost like WRC and we would move nowhere...

[urabus-denoS2000]

And the cost of a S2000 is not just the 168.000 €, this is the price of the S20000 kit. The price of a S2000 that is ready to race is much higher (http://www.motorsportforums.com/foru...12634-p-3.html)

So the inclusive price for a S2000 is about twice than a full spec N group car.

But I think FIA is not talking about that the future WRC cars had to be a group N or a S2000 car but a car BASED ON GROUP N OR S2000. IMO that could mean that the WRC car based on group N would be allowed more advanced suspension, some engine parts replaced (pistons, camshaft). That could get the prices more close to each other. For a S2000 it could mean a turbo or if not a turbo perhaps a mechanical supercharger (roots).

Thats why i said minimum 168.000.it is twice as expensive as a evo or impreza and it is not that faster.but i think that the s2000 cars have potential

[Buzz Lightyear]

who builds peugoet 207 s2000's, and what is the price to buy?

[bf1_IRL]

Peugeot Sport Price info here : http://www.motorsportforums.com/foru...&postcount=503

[OldF]

It crossed my mind that there is also a mechanical supercharger (Roots compressor) that could be used instead of a turbo. The Lancia 037 (http://www.lanciarally037.com/e-homepage.htm) used one and the EVO II engine produced 310-325 hp at 8000 rpm and about 340 Nm at 5000 rpm. In the “technical analysis” they said that last evolution of the 037 produced 350 hp. Nowadays I think the same engine would give more power. With a supercharger you can get more power and torque without loosing the nice sound and high revs of an NA engine.

]Sulland: There is no big problem to make 320+ Hp from just 2 litre n/a engine but the car would cost like WRC and we would move nowhere...

I know that the BTCC cars in the 90s produced about 320-330 hp but I would say that rally car with that kind of engine would be very difficult to drive because of it’s narrow torque window. I think that a 2-ltr engine that is suitable for rally use, the maximum power is about 300 hp. I could also be wrong. Perhaps the technology has developed that much in 10 years.

[Mirek]

OldF: I ment it quite a different way... You know, S2000 cars are much limited in the rulles in engine upgrades from pruction. They could have more both power and torque (not so much) but for much higher cost.

About compressor, I think that small turbo is better since the best mechanical compressor effectiveness is usualy in lower rpm. Turbo effectiveness depends (besides other) on it's dimensions. Also turbo is simpler. And group B cars are not the way to go, I think

[flat out fred]

Trouble with turbo in grp n ,they are cheap and produce enough torque overcome the exesive weight that has been imposed with the current crash protection however the stronger transmission componants to take the high levels of torgue has only compounded this, the result is an overweight almost silent car that is so boring to watch .
the fact that an evo 9 weighs more than the old galant at the end of the 80,s means the Grp N cars have got so overweight ( to the tune of 150kg)
That is not exactly progress

In W.R.C i have heard figures of 2.5 bar boost with a compression ratio of over 12 to1, the cost of the Turbo alone is over twice the cost of a 2.5 Millington engine never mind the Engine and F1 tech ECU to keep it together

I cannot see how a Super 2000 type car with sensible restrictions from the start could even come close to the cost of a world car

[Daniel]

Trouble with turbo in grp n ,they are cheap and produce enough torque overcome the exesive weight that has been imposed with the current crash protection however the stronger transmission componants to take the high levels of torgue has only compounded this, the result is an overweight almost silent car that is so boring to watch .
the fact that an evo 9 weighs more than the old galant at the end of the 80,s means the Grp N cars have got so overweight ( to the tune of 150kg)
That is not exactly progress

In W.R.C i have heard figures of 2.5 bar boost with a compression ratio of over 12 to1, the cost of the Turbo alone is over twice the cost of a 2.5 Millington engine never mind the Engine and F1 tech ECU to keep it together

I cannot see how a Super 2000 type car with sensible restrictions from the start could even come close to the cost of a world car

It is usually cheaper to get lots of HP out of a car with a turbo than it is to get it from an NA engine.

[Sulland]

Then it is confirmed by FIA that the future of the WRC car will be based on either S2000 or Gr N from 2009. Read that in Autosport last week.

The only one of the WRC teams that does not have a base car from 09 onwards is Ford - So what route will they choose - Gr N or S2000 ?


Rumours also has it that Proton is using the British team MEM to build a S2000 rally car for them, not saying if there is a plan to do WRC as well. But good news anyway !