S2000 & Group N, The future of rallying?

[Helstar]

“When Ford decided to enter WRC a big weight was giving to that, that many of Ford’s customers like rally.”

Perfect. Infact my brother has just bought a Focus. Awesome car too, nothing compared to the FIAT Punto he got previously ^^
We are going to see Montecarlo with that car

[Sulland]

Torque is something that is essential in a rally car.

Why not base the new ladder of rally cars on the technology that more than 50 % of us are using in our private car - Diesel.
It has tremendous torque at very low revs, easy to tune (Change the chip) and would make a sensible way ahead. Would it not ???

The germans have a Diesel Cup:http://www.hjs-drm.de/home.php
and maybe other countries as well.

Fiat has made a Punto R3D: as this one:http://www.autoaktuell.at/rallyeteam/ (Click Grande Punto button in the top left corner for the tech details)

Is Diesel one of the options on the way ahead, or at least as one of the new classes ?

[Mirek]

Diesel? No...

First of all. Tuned diesel is very very non-ecologic and if FIA wants some bio fuel etc. in the future (simply some "green" technologies) it means no way (standard diesel is too, the only good think is low fuel consumption -> low CO2 emissions, but all the realy dangerous emissions are tragic).
Diesel cars have no sound at all.
Diesel engines are heavy and need massive clamping. That means bad weight distribution on the front and also bad overal weight.
Diesel has massive torque in very low RPM which means very low power. Simply the car may have 600 Nm at 1500 rpm, but that is only 128 Hp, yes it could be more in higher rpm, but not much, even 600 Nm at 3000 is 256 Hp only. And racing diesel won't be able to get to some higher rpm without loosing torque much.
More torque means more tension in any part. You know, You can get only 250 Hp diesel but with gearbox, differentials or driveshafts dimensioned on huge torque which means much havier all parts than for petrol engine with more power.
Torque itself is nothing. The more important is in which rpm You can get it because You need some speed. If You need only to pull something no matter how fast, than it's ok but if You need speed...

[AndyRAC]

I don't understand, the Audi Diesel that has dominated the last 2 Le Mans is very fast as well as reliable. Sorry, I'm not mechanically minded, I know they produce loads of Torque, but this car is fast as well, though it is very quiet, almost a whooshing sound.

[Mirek]

You know, they have different rulles for diesel cars than for petrol cars... Basicly You can have 6 liter normaly aspirated or 3,5 liter Turbo petrol engine. But Audi is 5,5 liter bi-turbo diesel. I think that this doesn't need any other explanation.

PS
Le Mans prototypes has its engines close to the centre of gravity that means much less problems with havier engine.

[flat out fred]

one of the main reasons the WRC coverage has become so poor is it is impossible to create an interesting program when you have only got 2 competitors winning rallies and stages ,with only 1 other who is capable of winning the odd event when the situation allows.
You cannot promote a championship with only 3 competative crews and that is the reason that until
1 costs
and
2 relative % of competativeness between the rich teams and the not so rich teams is narrowed to a point that when you have a hot young driver who is on a mission is able to post some fastest stage times and get in the mix with the top drivers even though he would still stand no chance of winning championships as money always wins championships
This can only be achieved in a more basic and technoligy stripped car such as super 2000
One of the strong rules in super 2000 is that the homoligation is over 4 years and the number of joker upgrades during this time is very limited .this will severly limit the amount of advantage that can be gained by endless testing and development
If the WRC was to adopt the super 2000 concept with the only change being a 2.5 litre engine then you would have a formula to truly bring back the noise,competativity and exitment that has been lost completely over the last few years
Then you will have a story to sell that is interesting and so people will want ot watch and so the trend of diminishing audience and sposor interest will be reversed.

[Sulland]

What kind of figures could we expect from a 2.5 ltr NA engine ?

[Mirek]

Simply it depends on the rulles. For example engines of S2000 and F2 were both normaly aspirated 2.0 litre but both had big differences in the rulles and nowadays I think about 320 Hp would be possible to achieve in F2 rulles...

[OldF]

One of the strong rules in super 2000 is that the homoligation is over 4 years and the number of joker upgrades during this time is very limited .this will severly limit the amount of advantage that can be gained by endless testing and development
reversed.

That’s true that continuous development of the WRC cars that is IMO the biggest reason for costs.

There was a good example on the M-Sports old Web site. The Focus consists of about (I don’t remember the exact figures) 2500 parts of which 400-500 came from the standard car and of those 400-500 parts only 40-50 hadn’t been modified at all. WRC car = hand made car. The S2000 regulations prevent the continuous development of the car very effectively.

Another good example was in the interview of Christian Loriaux at crash net where he told that to decrease the weight 20 kg is not from one part but 100 g from 200 parts!

A WRC team is a quite big company also. By Guy Frequelin Citroen had 250 people working before the “holiday year”. When they joined again at the beginning of 2007 (no more active diffs etc.) they needed “only” 175 people.

What kind of figures could we expect from a 2.5 ltr NA engine ?

My guess is about 340-350 hp. A S2000 Pug has 280 hp = 140 hp / litre * 2,5 = 350 hp.

[AndyRAC]

one of the main reasons the WRC coverage has become so poor is it is impossible to create an interesting program when you have only got 2 competitors winning rallies and stages ,with only 1 other who is capable of winning the odd event when the situation allows.
You cannot promote a championship with only 3 competative crews and that is the reason that until
1 costs
and
2 relative % of competativeness between the rich teams and the not so rich teams is narrowed to a point that when you have a hot young driver who is on a mission is able to post some fastest stage times and get in the mix with the top drivers even though he would still stand no chance of winning championships as money always wins championships
This can only be achieved in a more basic and technoligy stripped car such as super 2000
One of the strong rules in super 2000 is that the homoligation is over 4 years and the number of joker upgrades during this time is very limited .this will severly limit the amount of advantage that can be gained by endless testing and development
If the WRC was to adopt the super 2000 concept with the only change being a 2.5 litre engine then you would have a formula to truly bring back the noise,competativity and exitment that has been lost completely over the last few years
Then you will have a story to sell that is interesting and so people will want ot watch and so the trend of diminishing audience and sposor interest will be reversed.

Good post!! I quite agree, Ford are the Manufacturers Champions, but to be brutally honest, they only had 1 team to beat - Citroen( Subaru are a shambles). It's hardly worth advertising the fact that they are the WChampions!