Career Progression - the Brookes/Ellison Effect

[Mach24]

Pat, great illustration of the point. Here in OZ I have no exposure to BSS at all but am aware all the guys you mention came from that championship.

I rate 3 of the 4, the one I do not rate (based on 07' performance) is Gene Laverty, after all he is the only one who has failed to make an impact in 07'.

Now it becomes obvious it is not a lack of talent, but perhaps poor decision making.

However you have gotta give it to Eugene for following his dream. I am guessing he had a bright future in BSB or another year in BSS ahead of him in 07' if he chose it, but he followed that dream!

Perhaps those riders in pursuit of GP fame need to get out of the UK earlier and race in Spain and Italy to build a platform to GP racing?

[ChrisS]

I think you've missed my point. The guy races in the Premier Superbike class in AMA but won't mix it with the fast lads on a trackday. Money but not talent.

yes I got that, what I was saying is that even if a rider is fast at trackdays (fast enough to make it on a superbike grid) that doesnt mean he is good enough to race is superbike

[ChrisS]

about Laverty and the BSB guys. With what criteria did Laverty's choice not work out?

is the final goal for all 4 guys motoGP? if yes then are the 3 BSB guys any closer to MotoGP than Laverty? I think not

[patnicholls]

about Laverty and the BSB guys. With what criteria did Laverty's choice not work out?

is the final goal for all 4 guys motoGP? if yes then are the 3 BSB guys any closer to MotoGP than Laverty? I think not

Any rider has to be adaptable in this day and age, so the 'final goal' has to be flexible and not a definite 'MotoGP' or 'World Superbikes', surely?

By all means, riders will tell you as they start their career what they'd like to do, but as with any career it doesn't mean it will happen. If when you're starting out in a national 125cc championship, you say you're aiming to be MotoGP World Champion, you're looking too far ahead as it's a meaningless thing to say - there are hundreds of guys in exactly the same position and you're not competing directly against most of them. The aim is to do as well as possible/win the thing you're doing and move on. No-one's entitled to win anything, as we see watching the current MotoGP field which is filled with champions of MotoGP, 250s, WSB, WSS, etc. Only one guy can win the title each year...

If there is one stage when you should choose a path out of MotoGP or WSB, it's arguably earlier than the guys I mentioned and happens when a rider is doing really well in national 125s. If you want to go to GPs, at present the way to do it is to either have some decent money and get a ride in 125 GPs for a couple of years, or go to the Spanish CEV 125 series and hope to be picked up from there. Otherwise it's from national 125s up to Supersport and Superbikes, and on to Worlds if you do well enough. Doing well in Worlds may then open up a late path to GPs, but that is a long-term option if all the previous steps work out. These paths of progression are another reason why many domestic riders do stick with the Superbike route, simply because if you want to be in GPs you have to up sticks aged 17 and even then there's no guarantee of it working out.

Do I think Eugene is closer to MotoGP than Camier/Sykes/Crutchlow? Well, no, not really. With the best will in the world, he hasn't got much results-wise this year and will be lucky to get a 250 ride next year. On the flip-side, the other three guys will possibly have had some World Superbike interest as a result of this year's showings in BSB.

The point of the thread and mentioning Eugene and the guys was to do with what happens when things don't work out, because not everyone can have a good season every time (sport is comparative - someone has to do badly!). James Ellison has suffered because he made a jump that didn't work out, and likewise Eugene has made a risky jump that doesn't look like paying. The three guys who went to BSB took a smaller step but it's paid well, as now they've each got a decent season's BSB on their CV. So if in future things don't go well, they can say 'look at how I did in BSB in 2007'. Eugene's now got to look back to 2006 and a lower class for his good results.

[Mr Fudd]

A great topic.

I think that the main point here is that by anyones standards, neither Brookes nor Ellison has done anything outstanding, in the big scheme of things. Whilst WSS wins & a world endurance crown show decent talent, they haven't got that 'last bit' that makes them a star at any level. They took the rides to get exposure on the basis that those in the know, know what the level of equipment is that they are on, and judge them, on that, rather than the actual results. Its most prevalent in 250, where factory bikes are available to a minority, then A kit, then B kit. Based on his results Chaz Davies is a waste of time, but based on the bike that he did them on, he's talented enough to get a shot on a MotoGP bike.

Another thing to consider is money, and which way it flows. There are riders in top UK teams, who are paying to be there, to get on the best kit, to be seen, to go to the next level. Thats a fact, and as a result, the riders that dont have the money ride lesser bikes for nothing, or even lesser ones & get paid. Its better to sit it out IMHO , than ride a bike that will not get results no matter how hard you try.

Another thing to consider is that now that coming off a 250 is the way to MotoGP again, as opposed to coming off a superbike, Laverty is more likely to make the next step, hopefully to a better 250 team, and as such will then have 2 years on the MotoGP circus behind him. Thats worth something.


Sadly the lack of 250 domestic racing has killed the route to MotoGP for all but a few now, and the costs involved in running SS600 now are far higher than running a 250, so lots of talent that comes from domestic 125 racing gets lost because they cant make the move to 250. This makes natural progression virtually impossible in the UK, as the feeder classes are full of guys who are pot hunting due to a lack of good kit at the top levels. The top supersport teams SHOULD be in superbike IMO, making SS a proper feeder, but its not likely nor practical , so it wont happen.

As a result, you get mediocre teams in superbike, with mediocre riders, and better funded teams in lower classes which is a bit daft, from a progression point of view, but makes marketing sense for the sponsors..... difficult.


So really , apart from Bradley Smith, we have no UK rider who has followed a non UK path to the top, and as a result we have no involvement in the top class at all , and only one rider in WSB of note , and one in WSS.

So top line Brits
MotoGP 0
250's 0
125's 1
WSB 1
WSS 1

Thats shocking.

I know that Dorna is trying to get more Brits in the field , but when you think of how many riders could make the grade , its depressing to think that a potential entry of 150 riders in the above groups, we have 3. ( not direspect to Danny Webb, Laverty or Dan Linfoot, but they aren't 'in there' as such)

When you look at the number of french riders that come through their series, which is truly shocking,from a team & spectator front, it makes you wonder if we'll ever produce another top line rider after James Toseland.


So when riders of Ellison's ability step up & take a ride that other dont, to be on a bigger stage, they should be applauded, and supported , rather than 'whats he doing there when he can't win here'.

BSB is too big now. Too expensive , and it sucks too much money out of the bigger picture.

Superbike should be superstock+
Supersport should be age limited
Superstock should stay as is
250 should come back
125 to stay.
and a return to a age limited superstock 600 class.



I know some of this is a bit O/T but i think its all connected.

[ChrisS]

The way I see things here are the 4 riders options for next season, some of them have already signed.

Camier/Sykes/Crutchlow:
stay in BSB (same team or move to a better one)
move to SBK (to midfield teams)
move to WSS (could get a top team, should be willing to accept a midfield team)

Laverty
stay in 250 (if he can stay on the same team or get an Aprilia bike, he could also go to a worst team just to stay in 250)
go back to BSS (raced there has the conections I think he can get a good bike)
move to BSB (maybe not to as good team as the 3 above, he is sponsored by red bull so that may help)
move to SBK (to midfield teams)
move to WSS (to midfield teams)

overall I think that Laverty's career path (as it is now) at best opened the 250cc GP championship for him and at worst put him a year or 2 behind his BSS rivals. Only time will tell if it will work out, trying to judge it after 1 season is too soon.

BTW Mr Fudd there is another thread (2008 BSB classes I think) about the changes BSB is having for 2008, superstock 600 will return next season

[tha_jackal]

Johnny Rea has signed for Ten Kate for three years, the first year being a WSS ride then moving up the year later.. Good move? Time will tell.. Also note that he turned down a ride to partner Bayliss at Xerox Ducati..

[ChrisS]

I just posted the same thing in the Rumour Mill, I don't see the logic behind the move but I hope it works out for him

[motorsportfan]

The Comment that ''James Ellison '' made the jump but it didnt work. was because Tech 3 DID NOT want it ''to work. Other wise they would have given him the same frame as EVERY OTHER RIDER in the Yamaha Camp that year. Rossi came first of course he could not get the bike to work He had to go back to the old frame then Edwards got his Some time later and lastly the Tech 3 tEAM..... But both frames were given to Carlos Checa and THAT IS WHY IT DIDNT WORK. Plus the fact the Yamaha told him they would not be renewing his contract and the introduction of Silvain Guintoli (as a 'Test rider) did not help matters any......... They made damn sure of that James was the only rider competing on the frame that Rossi could not ride. Even our British commentators on Eurosport would not say what was going on. During the GP in the U.K> Everyone was busy promoting James Toseland on tv. and forgetting that there was a Young Brit who had come up the ranks the hard way.Who had won Championships against factory teams., When James first went into GP his first words of warning From a British Team Manager......'''Dont Trust ANYONE''
Now the indignity in AMA When Neil Hodgson gets to ride under the Corona Colours on a factory bike to promote himself at the Laguna Seca GP this year.Whilst James is on the Privateer Machine. Why?????? So far James is 11th in the standings. Nothing to do with his riding , but to do with the continual glitches and having to pull in. So who is now up for the Honda AMA RIDE 2008........... Neil Hodgson. I still believe in James is just as talented as Neil. I sponsored him for a few years and will continue to follow his career during my retirement.

[patnicholls]

Some very good points above since my last post on this one.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing of course, it's easy to say 'such-and-such "didn't work" after it's happened, when we don't know for sure how the alternatives might have panned out. So everything I (and everyone else ) says should be taken with a pinch of salt.

----------------------

That said, I want to talk Brits again (the same things do apply to most nations, but I know about the Brits better ).

I'm after a few thoughts on Dan Linfoot's situation regarding next year. Dan has taken the 250cc Team Sicilia Aprilia vacated by Westy for the second half of the season. So far he's scored a 9th place in the wet at Donington and otherwise had it tough and been near the back.

Here's a few reasons why he's had it tough:

• He doesn't know the vast majority of the circuits[/*:m:1yv8n6b9]
• He is new to an Aprilia[/*:m:1yv8n6b9]
• Replacement riders in GPs tend to struggle, especially considering the above (Westy is an exception to this - but when doing the League's points its clear that the regulars usually have a lock-out on the points)[/*:m:1yv8n6b9]
• He is most likely not being paid for his ride (as was the case with Westy, also following several unkept promises about the machinery)[/*:m:1yv8n6b9]
• As far as I know, the language barrier will be a problem between rider and team[/*:m:1yv8n6b9]
• He is actually very new to a 250 at all - he's done a few races this season, about four wild-card rides last year on a Winona Honda, and before that one Italian 250 Champ race (which he won). There isn't a 250cc British Championship per se any more. Dan is 18 years old.[/*:m:1yv8n6b9]

At Misano Dan popped up to the Eurosport commentary box for a chat and Randy Mamola was literally leading him through how he should be approaching learning new tracks (in terms of not trying too hard and crashing early on) as he doesn't have a manager to guide him. That seemed an extraordinary thing for a commentator to be doing, but it was obvious that Dan did appreciate it and then you begin to see how tough it can be for riders thrown in at the deep end in that way.

Dan clearly has some talent - I've seen him win British Champ 125 races very impressively. He's scored two top 10s in GPs at Donington (once in 125s, once in 250s) when it's been wet and getting your bike setup correctly is less important. So there's potential there. The tricky bit is how to get him in the right place to bring that talent out and onwards if possible - setting the bike up properly and learning the circuits at the same time to score results.

I'm sure I was going to thing of a concluding point to this when I started writing it...