Driver who never got the break

[ShiftingGears]

What about Elio De Angelis? I never saw him race myself and am wondering what other think of him. Here are some statistics comparing him and his teammates through all the full seasons in which he has raced (1979-1985)
1979 Team Shadow
De Angelis: 16th position (3 pts)
Jan Lammers: last place (0 pts)

1980 Team Lotus
De Angelis: 7th position (13 pts, 1 podium )
Mario Andretti: 20th position (1pt)

1981 Team Lotus
De Angelis: 8th position (14 pts)
Nigel Mansell: 14th position (8 pts, 1 podium)

1982 Team Lotus
De Angelis: 9th position (23 pts, 1 win)
Nigel Mansell: 14th position (7 pts, 1 podium)

1983 Team Lotus
De Angelis: 18th position (2pts)
Nigel Mansell: 13th position (10 pts, 1 podium)

1984 Team Lotus
De Angelis: 3rd position (34 pts, 4 podiums)
Nigel Mansell: 10th position (13 pts, 2 podiums)

1985 Team Lotus
De Angelis: 5th position (33 pts, 1 win, 3 podiums)
Ayrton Senna: 4th position (38 pts, 2 wins, 6 podiums)

As shown, De Angelis was faced with championship material drivers in 6 of the 7 full seasons in which he raced and managed to beat them in 4 times out of 6. He almost matched Senna in points in 1985 as well. Like many other possible talents, he too died in an F1 race in 1986 before ever having a chance at driving a car that can regularly challenge for wins or podiums.

Test session, you mean. De Angelis was no doubt a very very good driver. Could have been a World champion. Only if...

[ArrowsFA1]

To be fair Elio did get his break and had the opportunity to show his ability, which he certainly did alongside the likes of Andretti, Mansell & Senna.

One of his team-mates, Jan Lammers, could perhaps be considered as someone who didn't really get a break in F1. His 4th place on the grid at Long Beach in 1980 gave a hint of what he was capable of, but a rumoured Ferrari drive in '82 was scuppered (IIRC) because he had an injury at a crucial time and he never got anywhere near a competitive car.

[Ranger]

To be fair Elio did get his break

Though not the one he deserved, considering how many years he beat Mansell in Lotus.

[ArrowsFA1]

There's this view of Mansell's time at Lotus that he was favoured by Chapman (despite his comment about Nige that "We've got this bloody whining noise coming from the car.... but it doesn't stop when you turn the engine off"), although after Chapman's death Peter Warr was no fan of the Brit ("Mansell will never win a grand prix as long as there is a hole in my a**e").

Once Mansell headed off for Williams Elio was then faced with Senna, but was far from disgraced against him either, so yes, there's a strong argument to say de Angelis deserved more.

[Garry Walker]

I've seen you post some crap before but you've taken it to heights I never thought possible

Thats a quality reply, you really embarrased me there and dismantled my post

My point is that after 1.5 Formula One seasons in an underpowered Tyrell and potential shown during that time, you cannot possibly prove that he would or would not have amounted to someone like Senna or Prost.

We can compare his results to those of his teammate and he wasnt doing much better than Brundle. Brundle never amounted to much in his F1 career. That, btw, is a fact. Now make your own conclusions based on the facts I gave you.

I can guarantee you nobody would have thought Prost would score nearly twice as many wins as Jackie Stewart or Jim Clark and more Championships than both of them after 1.5 years into his F1 career. Senna's case may have been a little different, but I wouldn't know about the hype around Senna at the time as his debut was 6 years before I was born.

Considering you werent even born when Prost and Senna started driving, how would you know? Both Prost and Senna shone far more against their respective teammates at the beginning of their F1 careers. While it is true that in Sennas case, his teammate was weaker than Brundle, his performances were very impressive. Prost, though, was faced with a teammate who was superior to that of Brundle.
No one in F1 was as impressed with Bellof, as they were with Senna back in 84. They only started saying "oh, bellof, that guy would have won for sure" when he had his unfortunate fatal crash.

As Bellof's career is an unknown or unfinished quantity, it is something you can only question or ponder, which is exactly what the person you quoted in this thread was doing. The fact is that you cannot possibly prove or disprove speculation of the unknown. The person you quoted would have seemed silly IF they had said that Bellof WOULD have been a great, because they would have been making a blanket statement of what isn't there. Said person didn't do that, but you did, making your argument a little silly indeed.

There is nothing that indicates Bellof could have gone on to be as successful as Senna or Prost. Going by the same piece of logic, I could say "Yoong could have gone on to be as successful as Schumi, had you given him a Ferrari seat", but there is nothing at all to indicate that would have been the case. The same is the case with Bellof, or do we need to hype every driver who has died on the racetrack as "oh, he could have gone to win many titles"

I think Garry speaks some sense. Don't get me wrong, Senna and Villeneuve are my two greatest heroes, but it's interesting how people erase their bad points from memory. Particularly in the case of Senna.

Indeed. Funny how JFK was the best president and Princess Diana became such a legend after her death. There are countless examples. If you are good at your chosen field, but want to become a legend, then all you have to do is make sure you die young and the public hears about it.

Senna only just beat Brundle in the British F3 championship the year before, in more or less equal cars (I am assuming that they are very close to equal) so how you could say with such certainty that Bellof would not have been as good as Prost or Senna with such certainty?

Senna was dominating The British F3 series totally, then lost his form after half a season. He was clearly superior to Brundle.
Besides that, you cant compare it like this. As F3 drivers, they could have been near equal. But when they came to F1, it was very obvious to everyone that Senna was by far the better and faster driver. Remember, some drivers are good in lesser series (take Liuzzi and Trulli - both super go-kart drivers, but not so super anymore when it comes to F1), but cant manage it in F1. There are cases of the opposite being true too. Take JV for example. He wasnt that brilliant in lower series, till he reached Indycar (grealty due to his name for sure) and then did pretty well there. Even with the Great Schumi, no one could have predicted he would go on to become the best and most successful driver ever based on his appearances in lesser series.

I don't think that 22 GP's for the declining Tyrrell team enables us to be as sure of Bellof's future career as you appear to be.

For one thing his performance in the '84 Monaco GP should not readily be dismissed, as he almost matched that kind of performance with 4th in Detroit the following year in different, but equally difficult, conditions. Having said that, Brundle was ahead until Alliot took him out of the race.

Bellof's death, and the passing of time, should not diminsh the potential he showed.

More about Stefan Bellof here - http://www.stefanbellof.de/

You mean the Detroit race in 85 where Brundle outqualified him by over 0,3 seconds and where in the race, most of the big names had car problems causing them to retire? How often did it happen to someone like Senna that a driver without any victories in a long F1 career, outqualified him so clearly?

The fact is - You can only be directly compared to your teammate. Bellof should have, if he wanted to go on to be as successful as Senna and Prost, destroyed Brundle, but he didnt. I suspect that is the reason why the teambosses of Big teams hired Senna and werent interested in Bellof. Obviously, after Bellof died, everyone lost their minds and Bellof suddenly became an alltime great, potential bestever .

There's this view of Mansell's time at Lotus that he was favoured by Chapman (despite his comment about Nige that "We've got this bloody whining noise coming from the car.... but it doesn't stop when you turn the engine off"), although after Chapman's death Peter Warr was no fan of the Brit ("Mansell will never win a grand prix as long as there is a hole in my a**e").

Once Mansell headed off for Williams Elio was then faced with Senna, but was far from disgraced against him either, so yes, there's a strong argument to say de Angelis deserved more.

Mansell is the biggest crybaby of alltimes in F1. He had problems in pretty much every race of his career, at least according to him. Hell, even that FW14B in 1992 was a damn horrible car and had big issues every race. It is no surprise he would complain about getting mistreated, it wouldnt be the first time in his career.

[ArrowsFA1]

There is nothing that indicates Bellof could have gone on to be as successful as Senna or Prost. Going by the same piece of logic, I could say "Yoong could have gone on to be as successful as Schumi, had you given him a Ferrari seat", but there is nothing at all to indicate that would have been the case.

You simply cannot compare the likes of Yoong with Bellof unless, that is, the mere fact that they both reached F1 is your argument. In which case, yes, they had the same potential because they both got there.

I take your point about death making a legend out of someone, but death robs us of potential being realised. It doesn't mean that potential was never there.

[ShiftingGears]

"We've got this bloody whining noise coming from the car.... but it doesn't stop when you turn the engine off")

LOL

[Ranger]

Of the three teams who claimed to sign Jean Alesi for 1991, it would have been most interesting if Jean had signed for Williams instead of Ferrari. Of course, he didn't match Prost in Ferrari in 1991, but then again nor did Mansell the year before, who was champion of 1992. Perhaps the same fate could have been for Jean Alesi, who was in his 20's at the time as opposed to the 38 year old Mansell. A case of huge potential never being realised.

[Ranger]

Considering you werent even born when Prost and Senna started driving, how would you know? Both Prost and Senna shone far more against their respective teammates at the beginning of their F1 careers. While it is true that in Sennas case, his teammate was weaker than Brundle, his performances were very impressive. Prost, though, was faced with a teammate who was superior to that of Brundle.

Prost was also outscored 8-7 in his debut season against someone who was decent, but not outstandingly special it must be said, based on statistics and team-mate comparisons. From that outlook, 51 wins mustn't have looked too likely. Prost did very good, of course, but you can't determine future success from 1 season in F1.

No one in F1 was as impressed with Bellof, as they were with Senna back in 84. They only started saying "oh, bellof, that guy would have won for sure" when he had his unfortunate fatal crash.

No one has said "WOULD have won" in this thread, as far as I can see. He could have acheived much more, as could any sportsman who has had their career cut short, like Wayne Rainey for example.

There is nothing that indicates Bellof could have gone on to be as successful as Senna or Prost. Going by the same piece of logic, I could say "Yoong could have gone on to be as successful as Schumi, had you given him a Ferrari seat", but there is nothing at all to indicate that would have been the case. The same is the case with Bellof, or do we need to hype every driver who has died on the racetrack as "oh, he could have gone to win many titles"

I don't know about everyone else, but I for one don't think he could have matched Prost or Senna, but he could have been a very successful driver nonetheless. But I don't tell people what isn't there.

[Garry Walker]

You simply cannot compare the likes of Yoong with Bellof unless, that is, the mere fact that they both reached F1 is your argument. In which case, yes, they had the same potential because they both got there.

I take your point about death making a legend out of someone, but death robs us of potential being realised. It doesn't mean that potential was never there.

Yoong never could realize his potential either - almost no testing, no resources in the Minardi. He would have been by far better if he had been given an opportunity to enjoy a full-functional team, not a monkey one. Considering the eras, Bellof probably actually enjoyed better opportunity than AY. Neither could ever realize their full potential, for different reasons, but in the time they had, they didnt impress enough to deserve to get mentioned in the same sentence as drivers like Schumi, Senna and Prost.

Prost was also outscored 8-7 in his debut season against someone who was decent, but not outstandingly special it must be said, based on statistics and team-mate comparisons. From that outlook, 51 wins mustn't have looked too likely. Prost did very good, of course, but you can't determine future success from 1 season in F1.

It was actually 5:6. Prost missed one race aswell, but what you arent understanding is that he was straight from the box clearly quicker than Watson. Watson was a driver who achieved far more in his career than Bellofs respective teammate (Brundle) managed.

No one has said "WOULD have won" in this thread, as far as I can see. He could have acheived much more, as could any sportsman who has had their career cut short, like Wayne Rainey for example.

And where did I claim people in this thread said that?

yeah, Im sure Bellof would have achieved more, maybe a few podiums, but thats it. He showed NO SIGNS of actually being a potential world champion.

I don't know about everyone else, but I for one don't think he could have matched Prost or Senna, but he could have been a very successful driver nonetheless. But I don't tell people what isn't there.

Tell that to the poster who originally made the ludicrous claim that he could have gone on to be as successful as Senna and Prost, when there is no evidence, nothing at all to indicate that.Talk about telling people what isnt there. Only someones emotions talking, because a driver was killed on racetrack and once with a cheating non-turbo car was doing well in the rain.