WRC main class in 2025

[mknight]

Anyway the point is that you can easily build a 1000 Hp ICE rallycar and when I say easily, I mean easily. There is really nothing difficult about it. The reason why it is not done is only the rules and nothing else. There is no technical reason which would prevent that. That does not apply to EVs. ATM it is technically impossible to run even 250 kW EV rallycar on the WRC level.

Do tell what makes it technically impossible?

Not having big enough battery to drive a loop or stage+Roald section isn't something making things "technically" impossible.

It is perfectly possible to have charging trucks with powerbanks at the end of each stage. Just like you can have multiple refueling zones outsider of service.

A spectator, both one at the stage and one watching on alllive doesn't really care about what happens after the stopline.

[becher]

Do tell what makes it technically impossible?

Not having big enough battery to drive a loop or stage+Roald section isn't something making things "technically" impossible.

It is perfectly possible to have charging trucks with powerbanks at the end of each stage. Just like you can have multiple refueling zones outsider of service.

A spectator, both one at the stage and one watching on alllive doesn't really care about what happens after the stopline.

But is it feasible? How much compromise is needed just so we can use an unsuitable propulsion concept for motorsport?

[becher]

There are rules for EV in Austrian championship and the car is built to fulfill them. The car has a rallycross mode with double the power but it can not run rallies like that because you need to drive distance in rallies and that is the essential killer of EV use in rallying (despite the fact that the loops in the Austrian championship are much shorter than in WRC).

Anyway the point is that you can easily build a 1000 Hp ICE rallycar and when I say easily, I mean easily. There is really nothing difficult about it. The reason why it is not done is only the rules and nothing else. There is no technical reason which would prevent that. That does not apply to EVs. ATM it is technically impossible to run even 250 kW EV rallycar on the WRC level.

Very well said. Maybe someone remebers it better, but I believe Baumschlager actually withdrew from one rally because the organizers were unwilling to adjust something in the itinerary for his car.

[Mirek]

Do tell what makes it technically impossible?

Not having big enough battery to drive a loop or stage+Roald section isn't something making things "technically" impossible.

It is perfectly possible to have charging trucks with powerbanks at the end of each stage. Just like you can have multiple refueling zones outsider of service.

A spectator, both one at the stage and one watching on alllive doesn't really care about what happens after the stopline.

Let's say you have 20 km long stage and you need to deliver an average power 150 kW @ an average speed of 100 km/h, not that much if you ask me. Just for that you need 30 kWh, let's multiply it by 1,2 for at least some reserve. Afterwards you need to travel some road section. No matter if you charge just after the stage or just before the next one, you need to travel one road section on the same battery as the stage. Let's do 30 km with an average speed of 50 km/h and an average consumption of 20 kW. Alltogether we have 48 kWh. That is 200 kg of batteries only to do one stage and a relatively short road section. The car in the example will be slower than Rally2. Moreover the people watching All live will need to pay attention for much longer period of the time per day because the cars will recharge after every stage which will become for sure very unpopular among the online spectators and also among all other competitors who will only sit and wait after every stage for the electric ones.

I don't even comment the idea to find a suitable recharging area after EVERY stage and get all the stuff including the firebrigade there in time. Good luck with that...

[WRCStan]

It is perfectly possible to have charging trucks with powerbanks at the end of each stage.

I know your question was technical limits but this doesn't sound like a PurposeDriven net gain, unless they are Nikola trucks carrying hydrogen generators.

[lmmjvss]

wrc fans: "we need manufacturers"
manufacturers: "we would like to race electric and hybrids"
wrc fans: "no this is ridiculous!!"
manufacturers: entering dakar, le mans, extreme-e, fia e-gt, formula-e, doing 'gymkhana' videos...."

[mknight]

Let's say you have 20 km long stage and you need to deliver an average power 150 kW @ an average speed of 100 km/h, not that much if you ask me. Just for that you need 30 kWh, let's multiply it by 1,2 for at least some reserve. Afterwards you need to travel some road section. No matter if you charge just after the stage or just before the next one, you need to travel one road section on the same battery as the stage. Let's do 30 km with an average speed of 50 km/h and an average consumption of 20 kW. Alltogether we have 48 kWh. That is 200 kg of batteries only to do one stage and a relatively short road section. The car in the example will be slower than Rally2. Moreover the people watching All live will need to pay attention for much longer period of the time per day because the cars will recharge after every stage which will become for sure very unpopular among the online spectators and also among all other competitors who will only sit and wait after every stage for the electric ones.

I don't even comment the idea to find a suitable recharging area after EVERY stage and get all the stuff including the firebrigade there in time. Good luck with that...

You just described how it's technically perfectly possible even adding a road section. Thanks for immediatelly proving yourself wrong.

"The car will be slower than Rally2"...as you know there is lot more to a car speed than just weight+power. This kind of statement is on the level of people claiming last summer how new Rally1 will be slower than any R5.


Timeschedule is very different on different rallies now already and has varied greatly before as well.

It seems you are thinking a lot about charging from. 0-100%, which is totally unnecessary and waste of time. Do a stage, charge for 10 mins, stop in TC before next stage, charge for 10 mins...and so on.

Having one charging truck and one firetruck standing still at each location is definitely not the most limiting factor. With 2-3 min gaps you might have only 5-6 cars charging at same time and typically you have around 10 cars in top class.

[Franky]

mknight and Mirek talking about EVs in rallying. Time to get a popcorn refill.

I won't get into much details as I'm leaning towrards Mirek's side, but based on your post mknight:

You are talking about charging after and before the stage, so with 4 stages repeated you need 8 sets of charging "stations", plus service charging. How long would it take to complete Rally Finland 2021 with your idea? And how long would be the charging period when you have 5-6 cars charging at the same time? Link to Rally Finland 2021 itinerary - https://www.ewrc-results.com/timetab...-finland-2021/

Regarding fire brigades, so it would be 8 extra brigades in addition to the ones that already are at the rally. Do the locations have so many fire brigades to spare for some motorsport event?


WRCstan, did Nikola finally prove that they actually have a working technology? Haven't followed any news about them after they were exposed for blatant lying.

[mknight]

Itenaries are not set in stone, there is no need to run exactly same itenary.

Have a look on 2021 Sardinia friday. 2 stages run twice, right next to each other with minimal road section. At minimum you might need 2-3 charging locations, those then move to afternoon stages. One location might then use one fire truck (truck != brigade). Anyway these are organization and itenary details that are very location specific.

Yes current EVs might need changes to rally itenaries, but not on an extreme level like placing everything on Monza circuit.

But that's not "technically impossible" as claimed here initially.

Less than a year ago we had crowds claiming how hybrids will never work in rally.

[Mirek]

You just described how it's technically perfectly possible even adding a road section. Thanks for immediatelly proving yourself wrong.

"The car will be slower than Rally2"...as you know there is lot more to a car speed than just weight+power. This kind of statement is on the level of people claiming last summer how new Rally1 will be slower than any R5.


Timeschedule is very different on different rallies now already and has varied greatly before as well.

It seems you are thinking a lot about charging from. 0-100%, which is totally unnecessary and waste of time. Do a stage, charge for 10 mins, stop in TC before next stage, charge for 10 mins...and so on.

Having one charging truck and one firetruck standing still at each location is definitely not the most limiting factor. With 2-3 min gaps you might have only 5-6 cars charging at same time and typically you have around 10 cars in top class.

You keep repeating empty theoretical phrases.

Every battery has its limitations for charging and discharging which is linearily dependent on its own capacity. You can not charge a smaller battery with the same maximum current as a twice larger one and say that you will charge it twice faster. It doesn't work like that.

Let's say we need to charge those 48 kWh in 10 minutes because that's the energy we need to get to another charging station in our example. What could be the average C value? With the Tesla S or Taycan it is around 1,5-1,6 average when charging 20-80%. Let's say we can have an average C=2 which is more than in the stock systems. That means that if we want to charge 48kWh at C=2 in 10 minutes we need to have the total battery capacity 144 kWh. Such battery weight is around 600 kg.

Let's see the Kreisel car because that is an example of something which works in the real world not only in phantasies. It has a battery of 52,25 kWh with a said average consumption of 1,2 kWh per 1 stage km. That means the car's average output is 120 kW, not 150 kW as I counted but its battery is a bit larger than I counted, i.e. it can run theoretically somewhat farther (or not if it used in the range 20-80%). The car has 1330 kg. This car is clearly slower than Rally2.

The voltage of the Kreisel is 860V to allow hi-speed charging with maximum charging power 280 kW. Sadly this is the maximum value not an average value and simply dividing 52/280 does not give the time to fully charge. I have found that the maximum and average C values (for 20-80% charging cycle) at Tesla or Taycan are around 1/2-1/3 of the maximum C value (maximum being around C=3). It means that you can not simply devide required energy by the maximum charger power (52kWh/280kW=11,5 minutes) but you need to multiply the vallue by 2-3 to get to the real numbers, i.e. it will be probably around 20-30 minutes.

In a system you suggest where 10 minutes of charging would need to cover 20 km of a stage + 30 km of a road section the cars would need to bring a lot more extra dead weight (unused battery capacity) to allow such fast charging. Simply you can not charge a battery from 0 to 100% at 10 minutes because that requires 6C charging level which would be possible only for the cost of permanent damage to the battery.

That's without the discussion about the cost of having charging trucks on every stage and an infrastructure allowing recharging of those trucks in the service park overnight.