All aboard Max's hype train or not?

[The Black Knight]

https://www.espn.co.uk/f1/story/_/id...1-driver-2010s

I read the above article and all I could think of when I saw Max Verstappen as the all out winner in the raw speed section was that this journalist has bough into the Max hype.

Don’t get me wrong on this one, Max is super talented but the driver with the most raw speed of the last 10 years? Get the f outta here mate.

Lets test that theory:

1. When you’re taking pure raw speed into account, there is no greater barometer than qualifying by which to judge raw speed/ In the time they were at Red Bull, Ricciardo had more poles than Max. In fact, Riccardo still has more poles than Max at 3 while Max has only 2 poles. In reality, had Lewis Max’s car, I doubt it would have taken him over three years to get a Pole Position.
2. It ’s not realistic to take Albon or Gasly as barometers considering how awful Gasly was at the start of the year and Albon was coming into a new car. On that side though, I will note that Albon set exactly the same time as Max in Q3 Japan I believe it was. This suggests to me but it is not definitive proof, that Max is not this raw speed superstar that everyone believes as he should have been ahead of Albon 100% of the time.
3. Max may have pasted Riccardo in qualifying last year, but it was just as much due to Riccardo’s bad luck and issues with the car so it’s not really a good barometer either. I’d rather take the previous year as a proper example and they were neck and neck in 2017

So who here buys the Max hype? Personally, I haven’t seen anything to suggest he has more raw speed than Bottas, let alone be on the level of Hamilton or Alonso even. He my have, but he has yet to prove it definitively. I suspect this journalist probably realises all this and really placed Max ahead of Hamilton to generate this very type of conversation but I think it detracts from the achievements of Hamilton.

The Max hype train is getting boring at this stage. Super talented yes, has he proven he has more raw speed than Hamilton or other greats of the sport yet? He may in time but he most definitely has not proven that yet.

[Big Ben]

I don't know if in terms of raw speed he is the best. I find these things hard to quantify. The author of the article invented a few categories and spread them among the 2010s drivers. Saying that Lewis Hamilton was the master of race management is kind of funny too. He's always doubting the race strategy on the radio, often for no good reason.
Coming back to Verstappen, he could easily win the title for the most annoying brat of the 2010s. The dumbest too (see the Ocon incident)
Then again, why should we get into this evaluations when we can't even count decades properly )

[Nitrodaze]

Verstapenn is exciting without a doubt. But l would not take that blog seriously, afterall it is one man's veiw of the world. For me it reads like a compilation of the hypes over the years. I think declaring a "best of" any driver traits is subjective at best or at least collective subjectivity in reality.
That said, Verstapenn would have to prove his true status against Leclerc in the Ferrari, Sainz and Norris in the Mclaren if they get their 2021 campaign right and Russell in the Mercedes when that happens. Not to forget Bottas in the Mercedes that is improving year on year.

Even with adjustments, it is hard to say if he was the fastest overall. I doubt he is, because l doubt Verstapenn in a Msercedes can beat Bottas in the Mercedes as consistently as Hamilton has beaten Bottas. And Bottas has had his days when he was simply untouchable. I think we can use these sort of phrases after Verstapenn has gone up against a proper competition in the other Redbull. Ricciado's chequred performances due to reliability and dodgy service on race days makes one doubt that we can use that paring to gauge anything meaningful. That said, Verstapenn is the best driver in a Redbull at the moment.

Would he do better than Leclerc if placed in the Ferrari or better than Bottas if placed in Mercedes is an unknown. But we can speculate that he can win a driver world championship in the Mercedes or Ferrari given the chance. But in the absence of Hamilton.

[Zico]

I think you are wearing those Hamilton tinted glasses again..

Being a diehard Lewis fan I do understand your need to question his outright pace... you see your idol Lewis's position at the very top being threatened by the up and coming young guns... and Max is arguably the quickest of them.

He has his faults, he's not perfect.. but I think its quite clear to the rest of us that he is right up there with the very quickest... Yes, its hard to tell what the actual pecking order might be but comparing him to Bottas? I think you just lost any credibility you had left with that one..

[Nitrodaze]

I think you are wearing those Hamilton tinted glasses again..

Being a diehard Lewis fan I do understand your need to question his outright pace... you see your idol Lewis's position at the very top being threatened by the up and coming young guns... and Max is arguably the quickest of them.

He has his faults, he's not perfect.. but I think its quite clear to the rest of us that he is right up there with the very quickest... Yes, its hard to tell what the actual pecking order might be but comparing him to Bottas? I think you just lost any credibility you had left with that one..

You miss my point. Verstapenns pace is not questioned. What is questioned is whether he is the outright fastest of all the drivers on the current grid. I don't think so. But he is there about when the car under him is faster than everything else on race day. So is Bottas, Leclerc and Vettel. Also Ricciado in a Redbull.

So what is your point?

[Zico]

You miss my point. Verstapenns pace is not questioned. What is questioned is whether he is the outright fastest of all the drivers on the current grid. I don't think so. But he is there about when the car under him is faster than everything else on race day. So is Bottas, Leclerc and Vettel. Also Ricciado in a Redbull.

So what is your point?

I was actually replying to TBK who said.. "I haven’t seen anything to suggest he has more raw speed than Bottas, let alone be on the level of Hamilton or Alonso even."

Sorry... should have quoted him to make that clear.


My point is that Bottas, other than the odd good qualy and race, is just not known for having raw pace in abundance... how anyone can seriously suggest he looks like he would be quicker than Max is quite frankly laughable.

[Nitrodaze]

My point is that Bottas, other than the odd good qualy and race, is just not known for having raw pace in abundance... how anyone can seriously suggest he looks like he would be quicker than Max is quite frankly laughable.

I can't argue with that. Bottas has been very inconsistent. He has on occasion shown that he has inherent good pace; well at least to beat Hamilton on some occasions. He is certainly not at the same level of consistency that we see in Verstapenn. Hence, chance are that Verstapenn would beat Bottas more often than Bottas would beat Verstapenn in the same car.

[Zico]

I can't argue with that. Bottas has been very inconsistent. He has on occasion shown that he has inherent good pace; well at least to beat Hamilton on some occasions. He is certainly not at the same level of consistency that we see in Verstapenn. Hence, chance are that Verstapenn would beat Bottas more often than Bottas would beat Verstapenn.

I suspect Verstappen would acheive a similar record to Hamilton vs Bottas but its all really a circular argument of 'what ifs' and conjecture. It can give us a rough idea but until they are in the same car over a decent time scale we cannot possibly know just how close they are in terms of raw pace.

If everything was equal in terms of machinery, it certainly wouldnt surprise me if the top 4 quickest could all be within a single tenth over a large data set barring any anomalies.

[The Black Knight]

I was actually replying to TBK who said.. "I haven’t seen anything to suggest he has more raw speed than Bottas, let alone be on the level of Hamilton or Alonso even."

Sorry... should have quoted him to make that clear.


My point is that Bottas, other than the odd good qualy and race, is just not known for having raw pace in abundance... how anyone can seriously suggest he looks like he would be quicker than Max is quite frankly laughable.

But how much of a real known quantity is Max really?

He's only had Ricciardo as a teammate worth talking about in RBR. Ricciardo was regarded as a benchmark because he beat Vettel but, as can be seen by Leclerc this year, beating Vettel is not a difficult achievement for a F1 driver and Vettel is far from the fastest guy on the grid. He's a pretty good driver but one that was lucky to land himself a great car for 4 years and won the championship. I must admit though, I think this year along with 2014 was actually Riccardo's most impressive going to Renault and comprehensively outpacing Hulkenberg.

Max has only had 2 pole positions. Ricciardo in the same car had 3 pole positions during their time as teammates, so if Max is this talented raw speed driver, then he should certainly have more than 2 poles to his name but he hasn't. Qualifying is the benchmark for raw speed and Max has a lot to show there. Bottas on the other hand has 11 pole positions and 7 wins to his name. Max should at least have 6 or 7 pole positions to his name by now but he has 2. Sorry lads, but this Max hype train is nothing other than a bandwagon that people have jumped on because others say so. Looking at the evidence, he certainly has the potential and position within the sport to show this much flaunted raw speed we hear about but, to date, he has only shown it in patches and he certainly hasn't shown enough to prove he has more raw speed than Hamilton or Alonso. I think either of those drivers from the 2010s would easily rip him apart over the course of a season.

[Zico]

But how much of a real known quantity is Max really?

He's only had Ricciardo as a teammate worth talking about in RBR. Ricciardo was regarded as a benchmark because he beat Vettel but, as can be seen by Leclerc this year, beating Vettel is not a difficult achievement for a F1 driver and Vettel is far from the fastest guy on the grid. He's a pretty good driver but one that was lucky to land himself a great car for 4 years and won the championship. I must admit though, I think this year along with 2014 was actually Riccardo's most impressive going to Renault and comprehensively outpacing Hulkenberg.

Max has only had 2 pole positions. Ricciardo in the same car had 3 pole positions during their time as teammates, so if Max is this talented raw speed driver, then he should certainly have more than 2 poles to his name but he hasn't. Qualifying is the benchmark for raw speed and Max has a lot to show there. Bottas on the other hand has 11 pole positions and 7 wins to his name. Max should at least have 6 or 7 pole positions to his name by now but he has 2. Sorry lads, but this Max hype train is nothing other than a bandwagon that people have jumped on because others say so. Looking at the evidence, he certainly has the potential and position within the sport to show this much flaunted raw speed we hear about but, to date, he has only shown it in patches and he certainly hasn't shown enough to prove he has more raw speed than Hamilton or Alonso. I think either of those drivers from the 2010s would easily rip him apart over the course of a season.

Pole vs pole positions only shows that the car was also working well and suited to these circuits... and a mere 5 point data snapshot hardly tells the full story.

Your benchmark for pace has to be your qualifying position vs your team mate.... I guess Verstappen qualifying ahead 14 vs 4 for tbe 2018 season doesnt suit your narrative though.

Who is quicker between Hamilton and Verstappen? I think it would be close but of course nobody knows...

The only point I'm trying to make is that you comparing Max to Valteri pacewise is just.. whaaaat???
If I was a betting man I'd put big money on Verstappen outqualifying Bottas over the course of a season if they were team mates. I'd have no doubts about that at all.