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  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Black Knight View Post
    This was after Raikkonen apology. Raikkonen should probably have apologized to him directly after the race. As for your comment on aero, I was on about the guy making the pass and guys can't have eyes on the back of their heads. I don't think Lewis and Raikkonen was an aero thing as Raikkonen at that point was the only on on that part of the track for the race, so he should have not had any aero problems i.e. he was not following. It was just a mistake by Raikkonen and I don't think you can apportion any blame to Hamilton on it as he gave him enough room.

    As you say, done and dusted. We now move on.
    The similarity of these last two Red/Silver prangs is that the passing driver ran across the nose of the one being passed , taking the air off his front wing , causing a lock-up and subsequent collision .
    You can't stop them going down the inside for a pass and you wouldn't want to do so at all .
    You also can't stop them from going around the outside , either .

    But , you can take into consideration , when judging the results of incidents such as these last two , or three , if you include RoGro and Carlos , that the guy inside is sometimes as much the victim if he loses , suddenly , the downforce on his front wing .

    If you don't , then the guy inside , if he's behind at all , will have to back out of it much earlier to avoid the lock-up .
    That could leave us with much less chance of them being side-by-side in the corners .

    I don't want that .

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bagwan View Post
    Ham and Toto both mentioned questionable tactics , but I think this isn't to do with how evil the red team is , but , rather the aero demanding drivers drive these cars differently as they evolve .

    We've seen in these last two races , a car go around the outside , just ahead , getting tagged by a car inside , locking up .
    The reason seems to be that the outside car is taking the air off the inside car's front wing , thus reducing downforce and inducing the lock-ups .
    On the Sky coverage , Ant showed us Max and Kimi through the same corner , and , though it was just about identical , the difference was that Max left more room , and Kimi did everything he could that time , to stay out of the slipstream , keeping the wind on his wing .
    The point of mentioning this is to illustrate that it took both drivers understanding the dynamics of these super-sensitive aero packages to get them both through the corner .


    With this being essentially a flaw in the aero rules , should this be taken into account when assessing these incidents ?
    The Grosjean and Sainz incident would be another example of this issue , it would seem .


    And , by the way , I don't believe there were any evil tactics at all , just so the thread doesn't steer off course .

    What do you cats think ?
    Losing front down force due to close proximity to a car ahead has always been a known problem since the front wing emerged in F1. When you couple this with cold brakes and tyres at the start of the race, this make for all the first lap crashes we have seen over the years. Hamilton left a lot of space for Kimi which l guess, Kimi saw as an opening to exploit and attempted to go for it. This there is racing. In the end, it did not ruin both of their races as they both ended up on the podium.

    From a championship perspective, it is just 8 points between Vettel and Hamilton. Hence the fight is still fully on. We have seen leads of up to 14 points swing each way, thus l think it would come down to which of the two can hang on to their advantage till the end of the season. The way Mercedes is looking at the moment, the momentum is very much with Ferrari. This year, they have not disappointed so far.

    Mercedes look weak all over. Poor at Strategy in the heat of the races, third best chassis it seems and Engine advantage also seem to have disappeared. They are definitely feeling the heat of competition this season.
    Last edited by Nitrodaze; 9th July 2018 at 23:20.
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  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bagwan View Post
    The similarity of these last two Red/Silver prangs is that the passing driver ran across the nose of the one being passed , taking the air off his front wing , causing a lock-up and subsequent collision .
    You can't stop them going down the inside for a pass and you wouldn't want to do so at all .
    You also can't stop them from going around the outside , either .

    But , you can take into consideration , when judging the results of incidents such as these last two , or three , if you include RoGro and Carlos , that the guy inside is sometimes as much the victim if he loses , suddenly , the downforce on his front wing .

    If you don't , then the guy inside , if he's behind at all , will have to back out of it much earlier to avoid the lock-up .
    That could leave us with much less chance of them being side-by-side in the corners .

    I don't want that .

    Neither do I but the point I’m making here is that Kimi should not have lost downforce in his case. In France, Sebastien was directly behind Lewis so he was always going to lose downforce. Kimi, on the other hand, was alongside Lewis and there was no hole punched in the air he was driving through so he has no excuse for his lock up.

    Sebastien should have known better to brake earlier. Kimi should have known better as to not lock up.

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Black Knight View Post
    Neither do I but the point I’m making here is that Kimi should not have lost downforce in his case. In France, Sebastien was directly behind Lewis so he was always going to lose downforce. Kimi, on the other hand, was alongside Lewis and there was no hole punched in the air he was driving through so he has no excuse for his lock up.

    Sebastien should have known better to brake earlier. Kimi should have known better as to not lock up.
    So , both should have given up earlier ?
    I don't want that .

    The point here for me is that the leading driver does have some responsibility in the incidents because if he had left more room , the inside guy would have been less likely to take him out .
    Since , in all of these three cases it appeared that enough space was given to that guy inside , yet all three got tagged by that guy locking up , it looks to me that it's in the passing driver's best interest to not squeeze the guy behind too much , lest he cause this effect .
    It has lead me to wonder if the aero kit on these cars has just become too sensitive to disruptions in the air flow .

    Remember , these things can't follow each other closely in corners at all , so we shouldn't be surprised at this effect .
    As such , I think it should be taken into account more seriously when judging these events .

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bagwan View Post
    So , both should have given up earlier ?
    I don't want that .

    The point here for me is that the leading driver does have some responsibility in the incidents because if he had left more room , the inside guy would have been less likely to take him out .
    Since , in all of these three cases it appeared that enough space was given to that guy inside , yet all three got tagged by that guy locking up , it looks to me that it's in the passing driver's best interest to not squeeze the guy behind too much , lest he cause this effect .
    It has lead me to wonder if the aero kit on these cars has just become too sensitive to disruptions in the air flow .

    Remember , these things can't follow each other closely in corners at all , so we shouldn't be surprised at this effect .
    As such , I think it should be taken into account more seriously when judging these events .
    The leading driver has zero responsibility in this case, as did Bottas have absolutely zero responsibility in Paul Riccard. It is wholly the responsibility of the driver making the pass to do so successfully once the car in front 1) moves once and 2) leaves enough room, which Hamilton did. That’s it. In both cases Bottas and Hamilton left more than enough room, just both Ferrari drivers had lock ups. Maybe Ferrari have an issue with the locking of breaks under heavy fuel load. I don't know but it's something that has to stop. If they can't sort it out, the team should be punished.

    Ultimately both were one of those things that happen in racing but you can only excuse it up to a point.. I do think the aero has become very sensitive but, in the case of Kimi, he should not have lost any downforce as he was never in Hamilton’s dirty air.
    Last edited by The Black Knight; 11th July 2018 at 13:59.

  6. #16
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    I know those rules , but , just as they've had to add DRS to cope with the aero kit taking away close proximity racing , I believe they should take it into account when assessing the incidents .

    If we leave the Kimi one out of the conversation (even if I think it fits) , we still have the same scenario happening with Romain and Carlos in the same race , so it's not just a Red thing , or a start of the race thing .

    We'll have more of this until they come up with some other weird artificial gizmo to counter it .
    At some point they'll have to ban butterflies and moths from the track area because of the turbulence they cause .

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bagwan View Post
    I know those rules , but , just as they've had to add DRS to cope with the aero kit taking away close proximity racing , I believe they should take it into account when assessing the incidents .

    If we leave the Kimi one out of the conversation (even if I think it fits) , we still have the same scenario happening with Romain and Carlos in the same race , so it's not just a Red thing , or a start of the race thing .

    We'll have more of this until they come up with some other weird artificial gizmo to counter it .
    At some point they'll have to ban butterflies and moths from the track area because of the turbulence they cause .
    erm...not sure what you are talking about
    the grosjean sainz thing was a marginal racing incidents and more likely Carlos simply turning in with no regard to his surroundings.
    I've read through all these posts and tbh none of them have anything to do withe aero or turbulence or whatever.
    If that were the case all 20 drivers would be banging into each other demolition derby style
    Why is it so hard to accept that in both cases the ferrari drivers were completely at fault?
    and due to some suspect race stewardship they both managed to come off easy in effectively punting off their main rival.
    If it were the other way around you would be screaming bloody murder not finding some intricate way to apportion blame on aero packaging.
    While i do agree that both incidents in france and england were not intentional, it is the severity of the punishment that leaves a lot to be desired.
    I think vettel only got a 5sec penalty for france. and Kimi got a 10 second one in silverstone. That is nowhere near sufficient for either of those incidents,
    The only conspiracy i see is an unwillingness by the fIA and the race stewards to met out proper punishment in order to manipulate the competition at the top.
    you can't argue with results

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bagwan View Post
    I know those rules , but , just as they've had to add DRS to cope with the aero kit taking away close proximity racing , I believe they should take it into account when assessing the incidents .

    If we leave the Kimi one out of the conversation (even if I think it fits) , we still have the same scenario happening with Romain and Carlos in the same race , so it's not just a Red thing , or a start of the race thing .

    We'll have more of this until they come up with some other weird artificial gizmo to counter it .
    At some point they'll have to ban butterflies and moths from the track area because of the turbulence they cause .
    Drivers follow each other all the time into the first corners in Silverstone and all other grand prix’s throughout the year. For the most part, drivers have managed to avoid each other. There has been the potential for dozens of more collisions in the past 8 races. That didn’t happen. Why? Because drivers were careful. There have always been first lap incidents and I don’t see that there are more this year than there have been any other. Kimi and Vettel made mistakes, there is no more to it.

    I don’t mean any offence when I say this, but I have noticed that sometimes you tend over analyse incidents and look for something that doesn’t exist.

    As for Grosjean and Sainz, we had an almost identical situation with Kimi and Max a couple of laps later. Both of them avoided touching each other. The reason was because on the inside Kimi realized a collision may happen and took a different line over the kerbs to Grosjean in order avoid it. To give credit to him when it is due, it was an example of great driving from Kimi. On the other hand, Grosjean did not have that realization which is why the crash ultimately happened. Anthony Davidson did a great analysis on it after the show and both incidents are almost identical except for how Grosjean and Kimi responded to it. I don’t put blame on Sainz for that incident as it was completely avoidable from Grosjean’s point of view.
    Last edited by The Black Knight; 12th July 2018 at 09:28.

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by truefan72 View Post
    erm...not sure what you are talking about
    the grosjean sainz thing was a marginal racing incidents and more likely Carlos simply turning in with no regard to his surroundings.
    I've read through all these posts and tbh none of them have anything to do withe aero or turbulence or whatever.
    If that were the case all 20 drivers would be banging into each other demolition derby style
    Why is it so hard to accept that in both cases the ferrari drivers were completely at fault?
    and due to some suspect race stewardship they both managed to come off easy in effectively punting off their main rival.
    If it were the other way around you would be screaming bloody murder not finding some intricate way to apportion blame on aero packaging.
    While i do agree that both incidents in france and england were not intentional, it is the severity of the punishment that leaves a lot to be desired.
    I think vettel only got a 5sec penalty for france. and Kimi got a 10 second one in silverstone. That is nowhere near sufficient for either of those incidents,
    The only conspiracy i see is an unwillingness by the fIA and the race stewards to met out proper punishment in order to manipulate the competition at the top.
    I agree with your last point for sure. In both cases room was left and in both cases there was contact. That's all on the over taking driver.

    Now to the other point on aero. Can someone explain to me how tactically taking air off an opponents front wing is any different from taking a non traditional line in order to make your opponent go the long way round and not down the inside or forcing them to try and get by on the marbles? All are tactical moves during the race like using a slower car to block your pursuer. There's no contact involved and no running your opponent off the track in any of those cases.

    And the one other point on the latest incident. It seems all assume that Kimi understeered because of sudden loss of aero. The other possibility is that he just screwed up and went too deep on relatively cold tires. It does happen you know.
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  10. Likes: truefan72 (12th July 2018)
  11. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starter View Post
    I agree with your last point for sure. In both cases room was left and in both cases there was contact. That's all on the over taking driver.

    Now to the other point on aero. Can someone explain to me how tactically taking air off an opponents front wing is any different from taking a non traditional line in order to make your opponent go the long way round and not down the inside or forcing them to try and get by on the marbles? All are tactical moves during the race like using a slower car to block your pursuer. There's no contact involved and no running your opponent off the track in any of those cases.

    And the one other point on the latest incident. It seems all assume that Kimi understeered because of sudden loss of aero. The other possibility is that he just screwed up and went too deep on relatively cold tires. It does happen you know.
    "tactically taking air off an opponents front wing" is the central point I am making in this thread .
    If you steal the air , and you're too close to him he may hit you , whether you leave the rules-required one car width or not .

    In no way does that absolutely absolve the guy following from guilt in the incident , however , it does show that the guy ahead has his role in creating the low pressure that causes it .


    One question here now comes to mind .
    Who were the drivers in the Seb/Valterie and Kimi/Lewis tangles who were the ones making the passes ?

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