Evil tactics or aero flaw ?

[Bagwan]

Ham and Toto both mentioned questionable tactics , but I think this isn't to do with how evil the red team is , but , rather the aero demanding drivers drive these cars differently as they evolve .

We've seen in these last two races , a car go around the outside , just ahead , getting tagged by a car inside , locking up .
The reason seems to be that the outside car is taking the air off the inside car's front wing , thus reducing downforce and inducing the lock-ups .
On the Sky coverage , Ant showed us Max and Kimi through the same corner , and , though it was just about identical , the difference was that Max left more room , and Kimi did everything he could that time , to stay out of the slipstream , keeping the wind on his wing .
The point of mentioning this is to illustrate that it took both drivers understanding the dynamics of these super-sensitive aero packages to get them both through the corner .


With this being essentially a flaw in the aero rules , should this be taken into account when assessing these incidents ?
The Grosjean and Sainz incident would be another example of this issue , it would seem .


And , by the way , I don't believe there were any evil tactics at all , just so the thread doesn't steer off course .

What do you cats think ?

[airshifter]

It does seem that often drivers are using "creative" lines to avoid dirty air, and or intentionally diving down the inside when close to another driver, in hopes of taking some air off the other drivers wing. In the case of the Lewis/Kimi incident, I would think the last thing Lewis would want to do is take the air of Kimi's wing, but at the same time if you hold a tight line into a corner it might happen.

It's the proverbial catch 22 situation, with drivers having to be in touch enough with the aero to use it to their advantage, and hopefully not forget when it can get them into trouble quickly.

[Zico]

It does seem that often drivers are using "creative" lines to avoid dirty air, and or intentionally diving down the inside when close to another driver, in hopes of taking some air off the other drivers wing. In the case of the Lewis/Kimi incident, I would think the last thing Lewis would want to do is take the air of Kimi's wing, but at the same time if you hold a tight line into a corner it might happen.

It's the proverbial catch 22 situation, with drivers having to be in touch enough with the aero to use it to their advantage, and hopefully not forget when it can get them into trouble quickly.

Yeah, that was my take also.

I think if Kimi was going to take Lewis out the race he'd have made a better job of it than that.
Was a bit disappointing to hear that suggestion uttered when they know the score better than anyone.

[Bagwan]

Yeah, that was my take also.

I think if Kimi was going to take Lewis out the race he'd have made a better job of it than that.
Was a bit disappointing to hear that suggestion uttered when they know the score better than anyone.

Listen to some folks and Kimi isn't very good at anything , so it would be unsurprising if he screwed this up , too .

Certainly disappointing suggestion , indeed , and , in fact , worthy of an apology from both Lewis and Toto .

[The Black Knight]

Listen to some folks and Kimi isn't very good at anything , so it would be unsurprising if he screwed this up , too .

Certainly disappointing suggestion , indeed , and , in fact , worthy of an apology from both Lewis and Toto .

Let us look at it historically.

Silverstone – Kimi ruins Hamilton’s race and got less of a penalty than Hamilton did for it i.e. only 10 seconds, whereas Hamilton lost 27 seconds sifting through the field.
Paul Riccard – Vettel ruins Bottas’s race. Vettel got a pathetic 10 seconds and still ended up ahead of Bottas after it.
Mexico (2017) – Vettel hit (I would say very much intentionally) Hamilton after turn 3, gets no penalty and ruins Hamilton’s race
Baku 2017 – Vettel intentionally drives into the side of Hamilton. Vettel ends up ahead of Hamilton in the race.

I can’t think of once incident where a Mercedes has hit a Ferrari in that time frame. Maybe it has happened but I certainly can’t think of one.

Now, I don’t think Silverstone or Paul Riccard were actually intentional but it was incompetence from both drivers in both instances. Both Mercedes drivers and Mercedes itself lost out on a big haul of points. Hamilton would have quite likely won yesterday given the race he had, Bottas would probably have ended up second in France. This is the difference between leading or winning either championship. Each time Ferrari has been at fault, and each time they have come off better than the Mercedes they hit after the incident. Kimi may ended up behind Hamilton yesterday but Hamilton still could have won Silverstone or been in with a big chance anyway whereas he had no chance yesterday.

Ferrari owe Mercedes an apology for their clumsiness not the other way around, mate. The aero problem has always been there. You’re behind another car, you lose downforce. It may be exacerbated by the new aerodynamic rules but it certainly isn’t anything new and, as the best drivers in the world, they should be able to cope with and predict it regardless.

One thing that does put a spanner in the works for me is that it was James Allison, Ferrari's ex Technical Director, whom suggested Ferrari may be intentionally hitting Mercedes. It's interesting that this is coming from an ex Ferrari man with direct working knowledge of the teams racing etiquette. James isn't the kind of guy to just to make unfounded accusations, so it makes me wonder what else he witnessed at Ferrari that he is unable to speak about which was also unsporting.

[gm99]

Ex-employees, like ex-partners, are maybe not the most trustworthy source.

[Bagwan]

Let us look at it historically.

Silverstone – Kimi ruins Hamilton’s race and got less of a penalty than Hamilton did for it i.e. only 10 seconds, whereas Hamilton lost 27 seconds sifting through the field.
Paul Riccard – Vettel ruins Bottas’s race. Vettel got a pathetic 10 seconds and still ended up ahead of Bottas after it.
Mexico (2017) – Vettel hit (I would say very much intentionally) Hamilton after turn 3, gets no penalty and ruins Hamilton’s race
Baku 2017 – Vettel intentionally drives into the side of Hamilton. Vettel ends up ahead of Hamilton in the race.

I can’t think of once incident where a Mercedes has hit a Ferrari in that time frame. Maybe it has happened but I certainly can’t think of one.

Now, I don’t think Silverstone or Paul Riccard were actually intentional but it was incompetence from both drivers in both instances. Both Mercedes drivers and Mercedes itself lost out on a big haul of points. Hamilton would have quite likely won yesterday given the race he had, Bottas would probably have ended up second in France. This is the difference between leading or winning either championship. Each time Ferrari has been at fault, and each time they have come off better than the Mercedes they hit after the incident. Kimi may ended up behind Hamilton yesterday but Hamilton still could have won Silverstone or been in with a big chance anyway whereas he had no chance yesterday.

Ferrari owe Mercedes an apology for their clumsiness not the other way around, mate. The aero problem has always been there. You’re behind another car, you lose downforce. It may be exacerbated by the new aerodynamic rules but it certainly isn’t anything new and, as the best drivers in the world, they should be able to cope with and predict it regardless.

One thing that does put a spanner in the works for me is that it was James Allison, Ferrari's ex Technical Director, whom suggested Ferrari may be intentionally hitting Mercedes. It's interesting that this is coming from an ex Ferrari man with direct working knowledge of the teams racing etiquette. James isn't the kind of guy to just to make unfounded accusations, so it makes me wonder what else he witnessed at Ferrari that he is unable to speak about which was also unsporting.

Well , Lewis just said he was sorry and that the suggestion he made that Kimi had done it intentionally was "dumb" .
Thank you , Lewis . Done and dusted .

I get what you say about drivers needing to cope with the aero , but that needs to include the guy making the pass as well .
If you take the air off his wing , you get tagged .

So , don't do it .

[Bagwan]

Doesn't it really only come down to how much space you must leave if you want to make that outside pass ?
It's kind of like putting a guy onto the curb inside and expecting him to have grip as you pass him .
In a way , it's worse , because they can't see that lack of grip , and it's sudden , it seems .

It needs to be understood , by both the stewards and the drivers , especially because it is basically invisible , and very pronounced .

[Nitrodaze]

Ham and Toto both mentioned questionable tactics , but I think this isn't to do with how evil the red team is , but , rather the aero demanding drivers drive these cars differently as they evolve .

We've seen in these last two races , a car go around the outside , just ahead , getting tagged by a car inside , locking up .
The reason seems to be that the outside car is taking the air off the inside car's front wing , thus reducing downforce and inducing the lock-ups .
On the Sky coverage , Ant showed us Max and Kimi through the same corner , and , though it was just about identical , the difference was that Max left more room , and Kimi did everything he could that time , to stay out of the slipstream , keeping the wind on his wing .
The point of mentioning this is to illustrate that it took both drivers understanding the dynamics of these super-sensitive aero packages to get them both through the corner .


With this being essentially a flaw in the aero rules , should this be taken into account when assessing these incidents ?
The Grosjean and Sainz incident would be another example of this issue , it would seem .


And , by the way , I don't believe there were any evil tactics at all , just so the thread doesn't steer off course .

What do you cats think ?

Losing front down force due to close proximity to a car ahead has always been a known problem since the front wing emerged in F1. When you couple this with cold brakes and tyres at the start of the race, this make for all the first lap crashes we have seen over the years. Hamilton left a lot of space for Kimi which l guess, Kimi saw as an opening to exploit and attempted to go for it. This there is racing. In the end, it did not ruin both of their races as they both ended up on the podium.

From a championship perspective, it is just 8 points between Vettel and Hamilton. Hence the fight is still fully on. We have seen leads of up to 14 points swing each way, thus l think it would come down to which of the two can hang on to their advantage till the end of the season. The way Mercedes is looking at the moment, the momentum is very much with Ferrari. This year, they have not disappointed so far.

Mercedes look weak all over. Poor at Strategy in the heat of the races, third best chassis it seems and Engine advantage also seem to have disappeared. They are definitely feeling the heat of competition this season.

[The Black Knight]

So , both should have given up earlier ?
I don't want that .

The point here for me is that the leading driver does have some responsibility in the incidents because if he had left more room , the inside guy would have been less likely to take him out .
Since , in all of these three cases it appeared that enough space was given to that guy inside , yet all three got tagged by that guy locking up , it looks to me that it's in the passing driver's best interest to not squeeze the guy behind too much , lest he cause this effect .
It has lead me to wonder if the aero kit on these cars has just become too sensitive to disruptions in the air flow .

Remember , these things can't follow each other closely in corners at all , so we shouldn't be surprised at this effect .
As such , I think it should be taken into account more seriously when judging these events .

The leading driver has zero responsibility in this case, as did Bottas have absolutely zero responsibility in Paul Riccard. It is wholly the responsibility of the driver making the pass to do so successfully once the car in front 1) moves once and 2) leaves enough room, which Hamilton did. That’s it. In both cases Bottas and Hamilton left more than enough room, just both Ferrari drivers had lock ups. Maybe Ferrari have an issue with the locking of breaks under heavy fuel load. I don't know but it's something that has to stop. If they can't sort it out, the team should be punished.

Ultimately both were one of those things that happen in racing but you can only excuse it up to a point.. I do think the aero has become very sensitive but, in the case of Kimi, he should not have lost any downforce as he was never in Hamilton’s dirty air.