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  1. #1
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    Evil tactics or aero flaw ?

    Ham and Toto both mentioned questionable tactics , but I think this isn't to do with how evil the red team is , but , rather the aero demanding drivers drive these cars differently as they evolve .

    We've seen in these last two races , a car go around the outside , just ahead , getting tagged by a car inside , locking up .
    The reason seems to be that the outside car is taking the air off the inside car's front wing , thus reducing downforce and inducing the lock-ups .
    On the Sky coverage , Ant showed us Max and Kimi through the same corner , and , though it was just about identical , the difference was that Max left more room , and Kimi did everything he could that time , to stay out of the slipstream , keeping the wind on his wing .
    The point of mentioning this is to illustrate that it took both drivers understanding the dynamics of these super-sensitive aero packages to get them both through the corner .


    With this being essentially a flaw in the aero rules , should this be taken into account when assessing these incidents ?
    The Grosjean and Sainz incident would be another example of this issue , it would seem .


    And , by the way , I don't believe there were any evil tactics at all , just so the thread doesn't steer off course .

    What do you cats think ?

  2. #2
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    It does seem that often drivers are using "creative" lines to avoid dirty air, and or intentionally diving down the inside when close to another driver, in hopes of taking some air off the other drivers wing. In the case of the Lewis/Kimi incident, I would think the last thing Lewis would want to do is take the air of Kimi's wing, but at the same time if you hold a tight line into a corner it might happen.

    It's the proverbial catch 22 situation, with drivers having to be in touch enough with the aero to use it to their advantage, and hopefully not forget when it can get them into trouble quickly.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by airshifter View Post
    It does seem that often drivers are using "creative" lines to avoid dirty air, and or intentionally diving down the inside when close to another driver, in hopes of taking some air off the other drivers wing. In the case of the Lewis/Kimi incident, I would think the last thing Lewis would want to do is take the air of Kimi's wing, but at the same time if you hold a tight line into a corner it might happen.

    It's the proverbial catch 22 situation, with drivers having to be in touch enough with the aero to use it to their advantage, and hopefully not forget when it can get them into trouble quickly.

    Yeah, that was my take also.

    I think if Kimi was going to take Lewis out the race he'd have made a better job of it than that.
    Was a bit disappointing to hear that suggestion uttered when they know the score better than anyone.
    The emergence of the new 'Rainmaster' - Mad Max at Interlagos 2016!

  4. #4
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    Doesn't it really only come down to how much space you must leave if you want to make that outside pass ?
    It's kind of like putting a guy onto the curb inside and expecting him to have grip as you pass him .
    In a way , it's worse , because they can't see that lack of grip , and it's sudden , it seems .

    It needs to be understood , by both the stewards and the drivers , especially because it is basically invisible , and very pronounced .

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zico View Post
    Yeah, that was my take also.

    I think if Kimi was going to take Lewis out the race he'd have made a better job of it than that.
    Was a bit disappointing to hear that suggestion uttered when they know the score better than anyone.
    Listen to some folks and Kimi isn't very good at anything , so it would be unsurprising if he screwed this up , too .

    Certainly disappointing suggestion , indeed , and , in fact , worthy of an apology from both Lewis and Toto .

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bagwan View Post
    Listen to some folks and Kimi isn't very good at anything , so it would be unsurprising if he screwed this up , too .

    Certainly disappointing suggestion , indeed , and , in fact , worthy of an apology from both Lewis and Toto .
    Let us look at it historically.

    Silverstone – Kimi ruins Hamilton’s race and got less of a penalty than Hamilton did for it i.e. only 10 seconds, whereas Hamilton lost 27 seconds sifting through the field.
    Paul Riccard – Vettel ruins Bottas’s race. Vettel got a pathetic 10 seconds and still ended up ahead of Bottas after it.
    Mexico (2017) – Vettel hit (I would say very much intentionally) Hamilton after turn 3, gets no penalty and ruins Hamilton’s race
    Baku 2017 – Vettel intentionally drives into the side of Hamilton. Vettel ends up ahead of Hamilton in the race.

    I can’t think of once incident where a Mercedes has hit a Ferrari in that time frame. Maybe it has happened but I certainly can’t think of one.

    Now, I don’t think Silverstone or Paul Riccard were actually intentional but it was incompetence from both drivers in both instances. Both Mercedes drivers and Mercedes itself lost out on a big haul of points. Hamilton would have quite likely won yesterday given the race he had, Bottas would probably have ended up second in France. This is the difference between leading or winning either championship. Each time Ferrari has been at fault, and each time they have come off better than the Mercedes they hit after the incident. Kimi may ended up behind Hamilton yesterday but Hamilton still could have won Silverstone or been in with a big chance anyway whereas he had no chance yesterday.

    Ferrari owe Mercedes an apology for their clumsiness not the other way around, mate. The aero problem has always been there. You’re behind another car, you lose downforce. It may be exacerbated by the new aerodynamic rules but it certainly isn’t anything new and, as the best drivers in the world, they should be able to cope with and predict it regardless.

    One thing that does put a spanner in the works for me is that it was James Allison, Ferrari's ex Technical Director, whom suggested Ferrari may be intentionally hitting Mercedes. It's interesting that this is coming from an ex Ferrari man with direct working knowledge of the teams racing etiquette. James isn't the kind of guy to just to make unfounded accusations, so it makes me wonder what else he witnessed at Ferrari that he is unable to speak about which was also unsporting.
    Last edited by The Black Knight; 9th July 2018 at 10:49.

  7. Likes: truefan72 (12th July 2018)
  8. #7
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    Ex-employees, like ex-partners, are maybe not the most trustworthy source.
    Oct. 31, 1999 - one of the blackest days in motorsports.

  9. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Black Knight View Post
    Let us look at it historically.

    Silverstone – Kimi ruins Hamilton’s race and got less of a penalty than Hamilton did for it i.e. only 10 seconds, whereas Hamilton lost 27 seconds sifting through the field.
    Paul Riccard – Vettel ruins Bottas’s race. Vettel got a pathetic 10 seconds and still ended up ahead of Bottas after it.
    Mexico (2017) – Vettel hit (I would say very much intentionally) Hamilton after turn 3, gets no penalty and ruins Hamilton’s race
    Baku 2017 – Vettel intentionally drives into the side of Hamilton. Vettel ends up ahead of Hamilton in the race.

    I can’t think of once incident where a Mercedes has hit a Ferrari in that time frame. Maybe it has happened but I certainly can’t think of one.

    Now, I don’t think Silverstone or Paul Riccard were actually intentional but it was incompetence from both drivers in both instances. Both Mercedes drivers and Mercedes itself lost out on a big haul of points. Hamilton would have quite likely won yesterday given the race he had, Bottas would probably have ended up second in France. This is the difference between leading or winning either championship. Each time Ferrari has been at fault, and each time they have come off better than the Mercedes they hit after the incident. Kimi may ended up behind Hamilton yesterday but Hamilton still could have won Silverstone or been in with a big chance anyway whereas he had no chance yesterday.

    Ferrari owe Mercedes an apology for their clumsiness not the other way around, mate. The aero problem has always been there. You’re behind another car, you lose downforce. It may be exacerbated by the new aerodynamic rules but it certainly isn’t anything new and, as the best drivers in the world, they should be able to cope with and predict it regardless.

    One thing that does put a spanner in the works for me is that it was James Allison, Ferrari's ex Technical Director, whom suggested Ferrari may be intentionally hitting Mercedes. It's interesting that this is coming from an ex Ferrari man with direct working knowledge of the teams racing etiquette. James isn't the kind of guy to just to make unfounded accusations, so it makes me wonder what else he witnessed at Ferrari that he is unable to speak about which was also unsporting.
    Well , Lewis just said he was sorry and that the suggestion he made that Kimi had done it intentionally was "dumb" .
    Thank you , Lewis . Done and dusted .

    I get what you say about drivers needing to cope with the aero , but that needs to include the guy making the pass as well .
    If you take the air off his wing , you get tagged .

    So , don't do it .

  10. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bagwan View Post
    Well , Lewis just said he was sorry and that the suggestion he made that Kimi had done it intentionally was "dumb" .
    Thank you , Lewis . Done and dusted .

    I get what you say about drivers needing to cope with the aero , but that needs to include the guy making the pass as well .
    If you take the air off his wing , you get tagged .

    So , don't do it .
    This was after Raikkonen apology. Raikkonen should probably have apologized to him directly after the race. As for your comment on aero, I was on about the guy making the pass and guys can't have eyes on the back of their heads. I don't think Lewis and Raikkonen was an aero thing as Raikkonen at that point was the only on on that part of the track for the race, so he should have not had any aero problems i.e. he was not following. It was just a mistake by Raikkonen and I don't think you can apportion any blame to Hamilton on it as he gave him enough room.

    As you say, done and dusted. We now move on.

  11. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by gm99 View Post
    Ex-employees, like ex-partners, are maybe not the most trustworthy source.
    Or they are maybe a very valuable source of information no one else knew.

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