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  1. #331
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    Ok now actually on topic. What I would suggest to solve this problem is a lot in line with what Watson has suggested earlier. Close the road a few hundred metres before the start wherever this is possible and feasible where drivers can warm up a bit. If it's not possible on some stages for whatever reason, then drivers have to do without it, no ifs or buts, it's the same for everyone. Also don't allow spectators to be walking around in that bit of warm up road. Nowadays it's normal for drivers to do warming up immediately before the stage start with public freely hanging around, with little kids running in between cars asking for autographs and it's not a pretty thing to see.

    I don't know what is the regulation regarding liaison onboards right now, but those would have to be fully recorded. I am not suggesting someone should go through everyone's liaison onboards every rally, but if any problems or complaints arise, you can access the incident from onboard view as well. Obviously everyone's speed would be monitored as well. Drastic speedings would be taken immediate action against, always, without any ifs or buts. If someone misbehaves, no fines, 10 second time penalties or any nonsense like that, but you are immediately talking about a disqualification and rally bans the first time around. The second time it happens, you are banned for a year at least.

    Things change and so does WRC, it simply has to in order to keep existing. Back in the golden 80s in most WRC rallies it was still common practice for drivers to have completely free reign to practice the stages as much as they liked. So you had professional rally drivers in rally cars doing rally speeds, practicing optimal lines for corners, on open public roads! There were no regulations regarding that whatsoever, before the rally or during the rally, everything was ok. For example Henri Toivonen went to practice stages in a long rest halt of Rally Monte Carlo in 1986 to be better prepared for the last leg. And of course as a result of this there were many injuries and even deaths involving innocent members of the public who just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. Just imagine if that was still allowed today! Nowadays that seems often forgotten, now we only mostly remember the Group B cars and crowd behaviour from the 80s. But If that practice wasn't outlawed by the early 90s and the modern recce laws implemented, WRC would have been long dead when writing this message.

  2. #332
    Senior Member AnttiL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AnttiK7 View Post
    Back in the golden 80s in most WRC rallies it was still common practice for drivers to have completely free reign to practice the stages as much as they liked. So you had professional rally drivers in rally cars doing rally speeds, practicing optimal lines for corners, on open public roads! There were no regulations regarding that whatsoever, before the rally or during the rally, everything was ok. For example Henri Toivonen went to practice stages in a long rest halt of Rally Monte Carlo in 1986 to be better prepared for the last leg.
    Hmm, I think they used rally cars for recce/practice but not on rally speeds, there was still police around giving fines. Although many drivers preferred to practice by night to have less traffic and to see other cars coming the opposite direction by their lights.

    Also, there's various stories about the Toivonen Monte 1986 thing, he was indeed taken by helicopter into the mountains but one story is that he went to a closed road test, other is that he went for another recce round with Harri Toivonen checking the pace notes. Also, Harri has told about Henri doing four wheel slides with the car going backwards into a hairpin on icy roads and Harri being really scared of that, but another version is that it happened already before the rally in tests.
    Last edited by AnttiL; 2nd February 2018 at 12:39.

  3. Likes: AnttiK7 (2nd February 2018),sonnybobiche (2nd February 2018)
  4. #333
    Senior Member Watson's Avatar
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    Maybe there would be a possibility to create a system where you could insert the speed limit of any given point of each road stage and synchronize it with the telemtry data. If the programme shows apparent breaking of the speed limit the officials can take a closer look. This way you wouldn't have to monitor evey mile of every stage with a bunch of blokesditting in front of TVs all day.

    I suppose this way you would also be able to monitor drivers sliding around most of the time since wheelspin is recorded in the telemetry as a very sudden increase in speed which could be detected by a logarythm.

    Now concerning the penalties handed out I think disqualification and bans should only apply for really bad infrictions. If a driver goes on a motorway and is allowed 120 kph and goes 160 he poses far less of a risk than when he goes 90 where he is only allowed 50. That should definitly be taken into account and first offenders should get away lighter imo.

    The teams could make the drivers' life easier by allowing the drivers to dial in speed limiters (similar to pit limiters) in their road engine managment settings. (Most commonly 40, 50, 60, 80 and 120 kph in Europe)

    This would put an end to the drivers being rewarded for speeding if they had to spend time repairing.

    As for the warm up zones I'm pretty much with you Antti. I actually don't think that closing stretches of road would be that much of a problem since it they don't need to be very long and it reduces the risk of casualties for the organizers. Maybe allowing drivers to carry heated blankets would also be a possibility if there is time for it before the stage. The drivers would turn up before the stage, put on the blankets and take them off right before they roll up to the start.
    Last edited by Watson; 2nd February 2018 at 12:51.

  5. Likes: AnttiK7 (2nd February 2018)
  6. #334
    Senior Member Allez Andruet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AnttiL View Post
    Hmm, I think they used rally cars for recce/practice but not on rally speeds, there was still police around giving fines. Although many drivers preferred to practice by night to have less traffic and to see other cars coming the opposite direction by their lights.

    Also, there's various stories about the Toivonen Monte 1986 thing, he was indeed taken by helicopter into the mountains but one story is that he went to a closed road test, other is that he went for another recce round with Harri Toivonen checking the pace notes. Also, Harri has told about Henri doing four wheel slides with the car going backwards into a hairpin on icy roads and Harri being really scared of that, but another version is that it happened already before the rally in tests.
    Recces were not done on rally speeds, but I think it's fair to say they didn't always obey the speed limit either. For example that story that Timo Salonen tells at the end of the great great film "Superautojen aika" from recce of Acropolis '85 (?) doesn't necessarily sound like they've used normal road speed

    Regarding the Toivonen story... seems like way too much time has passed to anyone remember it correctly. It's the same thing with his fatal accident in Corsica. Even the ones who were there mess things up.
    ku ois neljä pyörää ku vetäis ni ois vähän eri sekunnit kyllä pätkillä, sen mä takaan

  7. Likes: AnttiK7 (2nd February 2018),AnttiL (2nd February 2018),pantealex (2nd February 2018)
  8. #335
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    I always understood the Toivonen story that Lancia had a practice rally car ready and waiting in the mountains and they flew Toivonen by helicopter to practice the stages. They definitely flew him there, but from there on the stories differ. Admittedly there's a lot of mythology and mixed up stories regarding Toivonen and 1986, let's not get started with Estoril. I remember Markku Alén telling how back in the 80s he would practice for 1000 Lakes as if the whole route was one long circuit. Practicing the ideal line for every metre of the route. The notes were very simple and just there as a back up for the memory in essence. It definitely wasn't driving from the notes. Back then drivers memorised the roads by driving them again and again and again. Nowadays the memorisation process happens much more safely through videos.

    Apart from the aforementioned Salonen incident at Acropolis, of the top of my head I can remember a few other incidents involving famous drivers. Didier Auriol was in a recce accident for Rally Portugal some year which involved serious injuries for the other party, but I can't pinpoint the year now unfortunately. Practicing for 1989 Corsica Juha Kankkunen had an accident with a recreational vehicle (?) in which only apparently miraculous luck prevented serious injuries. Very promising French driver from the same generation than Mr. Loeb, Marc Champeau lost his life in 1999 while practicing a stage for the Mont Blanc Rally, the road was open for public and he hit a lorry head on with his WRC Impreza. Marcus Grönholm's father Ulf Grönholm actually also lost his life driving a rally car on a public road, but as far as I have understood it wasn't practicing but just a kind of a shakedown test for the car. I am pretty sure there were fatalities during the recce in 1985 Monte Carlo and the accident either involved Ari Vatanen or someone close to him, but I couldn't find more info on that with a quick search.

    Ironically one time it actually happened the other way around for a famous driver. In 1994 Francois Delecour was slowly cruising in his friend's Ferrari F40 in France when a driver practicing for a local rally crashed into him head on. Quite serious leg injuries and the end of what probably would have been a serious Championship challenge to become the first French World Champion instead of Auriol that year. He actually never won another WRC rally after that accident.

    Completely off topic, I have always been fascinated by the driving style of Francois Delecour in 1993 and early 1994 when he was at his very best. I don't think I have ever seen another World class rally driver drive so smooth and trying to avoid any kind of sliding as much as he did back then. Like night and day when you compare him to Auriol's style at the time.
    Last edited by AnttiK7; 2nd February 2018 at 15:17.

  9. #336
    Senior Member AnttiL's Avatar
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    You can get hurt seriously in a car accident driving 80 km/h, plenty for recce on a small gravel road. Meanwhile, the rally speed could be double that.

    Ulf Grönholm (Marcus's dad) was indeed practicing/testing in the night time in winter, and crashed into the rear of a parked snowplow truck. The rally car also burned.

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  11. #337
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    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGuS4cX4x00

    Here's a good onboard video on this subject. Kankkunen practicing for San Remo 1988 and it looks like the Perinaldo stage to me. Note that the road is open for public and the amount of speed carried into the corners, a bit after 20 seconds a road car comes the other way. Jeans, T-shirt and no helmets of course either.

  12. Likes: Allez Andruet (2nd February 2018),AnttiL (2nd February 2018),sonnybobiche (2nd February 2018)
  13. #338
    Senior Member Allez Andruet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AnttiL View Post
    Ulf Grönholm (Marcus's dad) was indeed practicing/testing in the night time in winter, and crashed into the rear of a parked snowplow truck. The rally car also burned.
    And Uffe's accident, if any, was result of totally illegal (by today's standards) "testing" - carried out on the eve of Hankiralli (classic winter rally in Southern Finland) on a public road. There was nothing scandalous tough (in the press etc.), as it was more or less common practice back then.
    ku ois neljä pyörää ku vetäis ni ois vähän eri sekunnit kyllä pätkillä, sen mä takaan

  14. #339
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    Being a younger rally fan the one that sticks out to me was very recent, Alexey Lukyanuk's shakedown accident a few months (years?) ago, where he crashed head on into another car.

    Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk

  15. #340
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    Not sure what all the fuss is about here. Yes, a bit naughty and Tomi should have a word but... meh... asking for harsh penalties?
    I hope you never become a cop or judge... you would shoot or hang people for farting. :$

  16. Likes: janvanvurpa (7th February 2018),maailmameister (7th February 2018),WRC1 (7th February 2018)

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