How good is Sebastien Loeb?

[MikeD]

In my opinion Loeb is an amazing Rally driver, But he is also overwhelmingly overrated. If you look at the competition he had during 2004-2012 in the WRC it was rather weak overall with only Gronhom, Solberg, Martin, Sainz, Hirvonen and Latvala as true challengers to his titles. And during this period was there few manufactures in the WRC and Citroen was far ahead of any other manufactures during this period of time. Do you think Loeb would have been a 9 time WRC champ if he had competed from 1992-2003 instead? And if we look at Loeb´s performances in the WTCC and the WRX Loeb has not been overly impressive, And it seems like he struggles to race in traffic. Do you think its fair of me to say that Loeb is overrated as a driver?

Oh no, not again. Not another idiot who thinks he can sit in his arm chair and call a 9 time champion over rated. Loeb made everybody else look mediocre on his way to 78 wins and a total of 116 podiums. He was that good. Consistant and fast and with very few DNF's to his name. So learn a bit about the rally sport before you stupid stuff like this.

[Mr C1412]

He also dominated every championship he competed in prior to joining WRC - including the French Citroen Trophy and the Super 1600 (now JWRC) championship which were both very competitive at the time. No driver got near him on pace alone.

[cali]

2) and Kankkunen. Doesn't take anything away from your arguments, just to get your facts straight.

Kankkunen was utterly crap on tarmac, thus far away in any kind of discussions what concerns Loeb The Great. No other comes close of beating everyone else on his way, mastering all surfaces. Just look at his win ratio. And the competition was there, he just demolished them in a way that everybody thinks the opposition was weak. It wasn't. Without him you would praise Grönholm as the best ever. He demolished him. Period.

[ESTR]

He also dominated every championship he competed in prior to joining WRC - including the French Citroen Trophy and the Super 1600 (now JWRC) championship which were both very competitive at the time. No driver got near him on pace alone.

Very competitive you say. He dominated ypu say. Well if no one got near him then there is no competitive championship at all. It's like every rally with WRC2. Usually Skoda fac. drivers are bored of no competitive drivers...

[dimviii]

Very competitive you say. He dominated ypu say. Well if no one got near him then there is no competitive championship at all. It's like every rally with WRC2. Usually Skoda fac. drivers are bored of no competitive drivers...

seems you havent got a clue about what he did at JWRC.
He went first time to Catalunya he won
he went first time to Acropolis he won
he went first time to Finland he won
he went first time to Corsica he won
he went first time to Great Britain he won
only at Sanremo he didnt won because he was entered with xsara wrc where he lost the win from Panizzi for 11 sec,while he beat Auriol,Sainz,Gronholm,McRae,Solberg,Rovanpera,Dele cour,Rovanpera,Loix from 5 different works teams.

Loeb is another level from everybody,even from his first steps was something we havent saw,and i doubt we will see again.
Comparisons with Kankunen Makinen etc are laughable.
Another point with very big meaning for me, at least,is that he wasnt a kid with rich father,nor with backing from Jouhki,Even etc.
A young electrician from Alsace that destroyed everybody,with pure speed and consistency at every surface.

[focus206]

Very competitive you say. He dominated ypu say. Well if no one got near him then there is no competitive championship at all. It's like every rally with WRC2. Usually Skoda fac. drivers are bored of no competitive drivers...

So... Loeb was not actually that good because he was so much faster than his competition... right, that makes sense. When you defeat so many world champions that people go as far as saying "he had no competition"...

[Augury]

seems you havent got a clue about what he did at JWRC.
He went first time to Catalunya he won
he went first time to Acropolis he won
he went first time to Finland he won
he went first time to Corsica he won
he went first time to Great Britain he won
only at Sanremo he didnt won because he was entered with xsara wrc where he lost the win from Panizzi for 11 sec,while he beat Auriol,Sainz,Gronholm,McRae,Solberg,Rovanpera,Dele cour,Rovanpera,Loix from 5 different works teams.

Loeb is another level from everybody,even from his first steps was something we havent saw,and i doubt we will see again.
Comparisons with Kankunen Makinen etc are laughable.
Another point with very big meaning for me, at least,is that he wasnt a kid with rich father,nor with backing from Jouhki,Even etc.
A young electrician from Alsace that destroyed everybody,with pure speed and consistency at every surface.

/thread

[Allez Andruet]

Kankkunen was utterly crap on tarmac

What is it with the wording people tend to use these days? Talking about a four-time World Champ, and some Estonian jerk feels it's correct to use phrase "utterly crap"... o tempora, o mores.

But anyway, going back to the subject... I'm astonished about how silly arguments (for and against Le Maestro) some forum members, who otherwise seem to understand the sport, have used here. Is Loeb the greatest of all time...? Well, could be, and I'd probably vote for him myself as well, but it's not like a no-contest. First of all, when we're comparing Loeb vs. other greats of this great sport, we're comparing guys of different sports. The sport Loeb mastered didn't exist in the 70's and vice versa. And oh how I feel nauseous everytime someone mentions that Loeb has so and so many wins in WRC... That has to be the most irrelevant statistics there is (on this specific topic).

That all being said, the only way to make any kind of comparision between the greats of different eras, is to compare the achievements within that era. I don't have the time now to specify all the elements that need be taken into consideration for each one, but the conclusion is, that when we're discussing about who's the greatest rally driver there's ever been, it all comes down to four gentlemen (in alphabetical order):

Sebastien Loeb
Juha Kankkunen
Hannu Mikkola
Carlos Sainz

You can make case for each one, depending on what you want to emphasize.

[cali]

What is it with the wording people tend to use these days? Talking about a four-time World Champ, and some Estonian jerk feels it's correct to use phrase "utterly crap"... o tempora, o mores.

But anyway, going back to the subject... I'm astonished about how silly arguments (for and against Le Maestro) some forum members, who otherwise seem to understand the sport, have used here. Is Loeb the greatest of all time...? Well, could be, and I'd probably vote for him myself as well, but it's not like a no-contest. First of all, when we're comparing Loeb vs. other greats of this great sport, we're comparing guys of different sports. The sport Loeb mastered didn't exist in the 70's and vice versa. And oh how I feel nauseous everytime someone mentions that Loeb has so and so many wins in WRC... That has to be the most irrelevant statistics there is (on this specific topic).

That all being said, the only way to make any kind of comparision between the greats of different eras, is to compare the achievements within that era. I don't have the time now to specify all the elements that need be taken into consideration for each one, but the conclusion is, that when we're discussing about who's the greatest rally driver there's ever been, it all comes down to four gentlemen (in alphabetical order):

Sebastien Loeb
Juha Kankkunen
Hannu Mikkola
Carlos Sainz

You can make case for each one, depending on what you want to emphasize.

Speaking the truth gets the best name-calling out of you? I won't go as low as you went. I rely on statistics. He was crap compared to Loeb in every aspects you can get. Great driver but utterly crap compared to Loeb, specially on tarmac. Can't stand the truth?

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[Allez Andruet]

I rely on statistics. He was crap compared to Loeb in every aspects you can get.

Then feel free to share the statistics you're referring to.