How good is Sebastien Loeb?

[focus206]

I dont find Loeb impressive in either WTCC or in Rallycross RX, And you can easily see that he is not at good racing in traffic. Yes Loeb finished in third place one point behind Muller in WTCC 2015 but he also quite a lot of mistakes during his sejour in the WTCC, And you could see that he struggled while racing in traffic. His second place at Le Mans in 2006 was pretty damn impressive, And to be honest i think Loeb would have performed better if he had taken a career at endurance racing instead of touring cars or rallycross. Loeb is without a doubt one of the all time greats in motorsport, But i would say that he had an easy competition in the WRC between 2004-2012, And during this period Citroen was like what Ferrari was in F1 in the early 2000s.

He struggles to drive in the traffic because he's a rally driver. And nonetheless, he managed to be on pace with Yvan Muller. But even if he would have been much worse, in both touring car racing and rallycross, how does that influence how good of a RALLY driver he is?
About the easy competition, I do not agree. Gronholm was a great driver, Solberg as well. Hirvonen in his prime was very good also thanks to his consistency, and let's not forget McRae, Sainz and in part Makinen who yes, were in the last years of their careers, but they were still fast as it was proven in the final standings of those years. Much more competition than Ogier had in last years, for example.
Also that Citroen was like Ferrari, I do not agree. In 2004 and 2005 it was the best car but not by a great margin, where was Duval with his speed (when he wasn't crashing)? Then in 2006 he won, still using the old Xsara against the new Focus, even after skipping 4 rounds. In 2007, 2008 and in part 2009, the Focus wasn't inferior to the C4, at least not by a great margin. I'd say only 2009 and 2010 were "easy" titles to win, and even in 2009 Hirvonen fought until the last round thanks to his consistency. And 2012 too, but because of others' faults, Hirvonen not being able to match Loeb's pace, while Latvala and Solberg literally mistook everything they could mistake in the works Fiestas.

[RAS007]

After Gronholm retired, Loeb had no competition and that era was a really terrible time for the WRC. For me, Kankkunen is still the greatest due to 4 titles with 3 different manufacturers.

[N.O.T]

There's 3 ways to answer this one.

1. Kankkunen, Mäkinen and Ogier.
Just the names, no arguments. Your answer will then be something about my medication.

2. No one.
And you will say nothing

3. The most interesting way: Let's say Loeb had driven for the tenth title with Ogier and lost.
Who would then be the greatest driver in your opinion? And why?

1. if you throw names with no arguments then medication is not the solution unfortunately. but then again makinen is nothing.... he did what Loeb did but just 4 times and in one case he was extremely lucky. Kankunen is the main rival due to his achievements with an array of different manufacturers but also different era of car technology but he was nothing on tarmac... Ogiers career is not over to judge yet, but to me he is the closest rival of the aforementioned the fact that he managed to win with not the best car last year is a huge plus but also the fact that he won a championship while being not the fastest in a huge minus.

2. I will say that i agree with you

3. hypothetical questions are stupid and i am a very smart man.

[N.O.T]

I dont find Loeb impressive in either WTCC or in Rallycross RX, And you can easily see that he is not at good racing in traffic. Yes Loeb finished in third place one point behind Muller in WTCC 2015 but he also quite a lot of mistakes during his sejour in the WTCC, And you could see that he struggled while racing in traffic. His second place at Le Mans in 2006 was pretty damn impressive, And to be honest i think Loeb would have performed better if he had taken a career at endurance racing instead of touring cars or rallycross. Loeb is without a doubt one of the all time greats in motorsport, But i would say that he had an easy competition in the WRC between 2004-2012, And during this period Citroen was like what Ferrari was in F1 in the early 2000s.

what has wtcc and other girl motorsports have to do with rallying ? your question was if Loeb was the greatest in rallying ? or the greatest motorsport driver ? (which is also true if you take a look at in how many disciplines he has wins and records)

[seb_sh]

In my opinion Loeb is an amazing Rally driver, But he is also overwhelmingly overrated. If you look at the competition he had during 2004-2012 in the WRC it was rather weak overall with only Gronhom, Solberg, Martin, Sainz, Hirvonen and Latvala as true challengers to his titles. And during this period was there few manufactures in the WRC and Citroen was far ahead of any other manufactures during this period of time. Do you think Loeb would have been a 9 time WRC champ if he had competed from 1992-2003 instead? And if we look at Loeb´s performances in the WTCC and the WRX Loeb has not been overly impressive, And it seems like he struggles to race in traffic. Do you think its fair of me to say that Loeb is overrated as a driver?

You don't say what you mean exactly by "overwhelmingly overrated". In order to tell that you should refer to that "rating", but I assume you mean "the best rally driver of all time" because that's the highest rating he gets from some people. If you say he shouldn't have won 9 titles well he did, fair and square, knowing how many he would have won in another era is just speculation. The cars he was driving were not completely dominant, you can tell by looking at the results of his team-mates. His performance in WTCC was not impressive but you compare him with drivers who have a long touring car career or who were brought up in circuit racing. Also which other rally driver was so good in traffic that you can count that against him.

The only factual negative you can put on his career is that he won with only 1 team/manufacturer. His performances in other categories are positive or neutral at worst.

However his achievements are much more:
- he beat ALL of his team-mates
- he beat the following champions: McRae (same car), Sainz (same car), Makinen, Solberg (except for 2003), Gronholm - it's true some of them were at the end or final part of their careers but in total they had 10 drivers titles between them
- he beat Hirvonen (same car), Latvala, Ogier (same car - too bad we didn't get more battles when Ogier went VW) all of who would have been champions at least once during the time Loeb was competing if he wasn't there
- he is recognized as a good car developer
- he has a very good safety record
- he was able to adjust his speed very well according to conditions
- he won with 3 car generations with different technical regulations in very different conditions in all types of rallies

Going back to the idea of he is the greatest, if he is not then someone must be better, who could it be?
Judging by titles the closest are Ogier, Makinen and Kankkunen.
With Ogier vs Loeb it's hardest to say but Loeb did beat him directly, however Ogier won with two manufacturers now and depending on how his career goes there might be some debate. However if you think about the opposition and car you could argue Ogier had it easier than Loeb except last year.
Makinen vs Loeb in direct battles is in favor of Loeb, also at least one of Makinen's titles was somewhat lucky. Additionaly Makinen was too crash prone, I doubt he'd be able to challenge Loeb to a title plus he won titles in only one car in only one type of technical regulations.
Kankkunen is a good example, he won over a long time period with very different cars but he had one weakness that makes Loeb a more complete driver and that's tarmac.

With all the others the comparison is much more speculative and while it's definitely fun and interesting to wonder what if in reality the results are there for Loeb and not there for others.

As a disclaimer: I'm not a Loeb fanboy by any means, just so happens we share a similar name (hence my nickname on this forum), I was actually rooting for McRae and then switched to Solberg. But I do respect him very much even though it was very annoying that he kept winning all the time :P

[Joestlaachmkr]

He struggles to drive in the traffic because he's a rally driver. And nonetheless, he managed to be on pace with Yvan Muller. But even if he would have been much worse, in both touring car racing and rallycross, how does that influence how good of a RALLY driver he is?
About the easy competition, I do not agree. Gronholm was a great driver, Solberg as well. Hirvonen in his prime was very good also thanks to his consistency, and let's not forget McRae, Sainz and in part Makinen who yes, were in the last years of their careers, but they were still fast as it was proven in the final standings of those years. Much more competition than Ogier had in last years, for example.
Also that Citroen was like Ferrari, I do not agree. In 2004 and 2005 it was the best car but not by a great margin, where was Duval with his speed (when he wasn't crashing)? Then in 2006 he won, still using the old Xsara against the new Focus, even after skipping 4 rounds. In 2007, 2008 and in part 2009, the Focus wasn't inferior to the C4, at least not by a great margin. I'd say only 2009 and 2010 were "easy" titles to win, and even in 2009 Hirvonen fought until the last round thanks to his consistency. And 2012 too, but because of others' faults, Hirvonen not being able to match Loeb's pace, while Latvala and Solberg literally mistook everything they could mistake in the works Fiestas.

Yes, Loeb is terrible at racing in traffic. And in the WTCC was Loeb behind both his team mates Muller and Lopez, While in Rallycross RX he is behind his team mate Timmy Hansen. And i found it funny when he last year said that he would consider quitting Rallycross after 2018 if not the dominance of the VWs of Kristoffersson and Solberg leveled out in 2018, While neither Loeb himself nor any of his competitors said nothing like that during the dominance of Citroen where Loeb had an easy ride to his 9 straight WRC titles. And if you ask me the only years where there was great drivers with good cars who was capable of challenging Loeb & Citroen was in 2004,05,06 and 07. Between 2008-2012 Loeb literally had no serious competition. And like i said Loeb is an amazing driver, But he is also heavily overrated in my opinion.

[Joestlaachmkr]

After Gronholm retired, Loeb had no competition and that era was a really terrible time for the WRC. For me, Kankkunen is still the greatest due to 4 titles with 3 different manufacturers.

Exactly.

[ESTR]

What he achieve is that he almost killed the WRC. And in the end of 2017 of World RX season he complain that VW will make manus quitting of their dominance. What about Citroen and himself... And I would put him behind the wheel in the 70's, 80s where there were worst conditions and no much preparations like these days where there is 100 people behind one driver and 1000 behind the team.

[focus206]

Yes, Loeb is terrible at racing in traffic. And in the WTCC was Loeb behind both his team mates Muller and Lopez, While in Rallycross RX he is behind his team mate Timmy Hansen. And i found it funny when he last year said that he would consider quitting Rallycross after 2018 if not the dominance of the VWs of Kristoffersson and Solberg leveled out in 2018, While neither Loeb himself nor any of his competitors said nothing like that during the dominance of Citroen where Loeb had an easy ride to his 9 straight WRC titles. And if you ask me the only years where there was great drivers with good cars who was capable of challenging Loeb & Citroen was in 2004,05,06 and 07. Between 2008-2012 Loeb literally had no serious competition. And like i said Loeb is an amazing driver, But he is also heavily overrated in my opinion.

Terrible? Not even remotely close to be terrible. No driver terrible at racing in the traffic can achieve 3rd in WTCC and 2nd in Le Mans.
In Rallycross he's behind Timmy Hansen? Loeb finished both 2016 and 2017 ahead of Hansen in the final standings, what are you talking about?
Between 2008 and 2012, he had Hirvonen as a challenger, which many of you seem to understimate quite a lot. And in 2011, he had Ogier as a challenger as well (I'm not counting the previous years in which Ogier was a rookie). Let's not forget that Hirvonen wasn't far behind in many occasions against his team-mate Gronholm, that he fought until the last rally against Loeb in 2009 and once again against Loeb and Ogier in 2011, actually finishing 2nd in the 2011 final standings ahead of Ogier. Saying that he wasn't a competition against 2 of the greatests like Loeb and Ogier, is just wrong in my opinion.

[L555MAT]

Citroën was were they were thanks to Loeb, I think... In 2003 Citroën attracted both Sainz and McRae, some of the greatest drivers of that era, and both couldn't do what Loeb did, while he was doing his very first full season in a WRCar. So to answer the question in the title, Loeb was the greatest rally driver of all time (for me), and the current top drivers wouldn't be at the level they're at now, if Loeb hadn't been there those years. What he has done in other disciplines is irrelevant, Raikkonen and Kubica tried rallying, failed to achieve what they wanted, but that doesn't make them any worse in F1.

Lets be fair Mcrae and Sainz were both well past their primes at this point. Mcrae in his prime was arguable the fastest driver ever in the WRC (not nessecarily the best). Sainz is definately a contender for the GOAT imho.