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  1. #1561
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    Quote Originally Posted by ESTR View Post
    Rules are rules. If he doesn't like them no one is forcing him to stay in championship.
    He was one of SIX drivers which hit the chicane yet he was the only one penalised

  2. #1562
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC View Post
    The Ogier PS penalty row returns...

    https://www.autosport.com/wrc/news/1...-the-wrc-title

    You can see from the article why M-Sport and Ogier are so disappointed, as there are so many inconsistancies...
    The fact that Neuville didn't get the penalty as well for hitting the barriers on SS21 is simply explained: it wasn't the power stage. If in circuit racing you exceed track limits during the race, you get a warning. After a number of warnings, you get the penalty. But if you exceed track limits and gain tenths of seconds during your qualifying lap, you're not going to keep your great lap time and start from the front of the grid while receiving just a warning: your lap time will be invalidated. So yes, same crime, but the penalty in the qualifying lap is more severe. Same works for a normal SS and a PS.
    If we want to talk in absolute fairness, the stewards maybe didn't bother giving a penalty to Thierry, considering that it wasn't the PS and that +10 seconds to his time wouldn't have changed a thing.
    About the other drivers who hit the chicane during the PS, I could guess the stewards didn't find that any of them gained time by hitting it? A video of the various drivers through the chicane on the PS would be helpful to judge.

  3. Likes: pantealex (23rd May 2018),steve.mandzij (23rd May 2018)
  4. #1563
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    Quote Originally Posted by mArvAlcao17 View Post
    He was one of SIX drivers which hit the chicane yet he was the only one penalised
    6 drivers hit the chicane after the warning ?

    Ogier + 5. Could you please name those other 5 ?

    I did watch that stage and I´m pretty sure that none other WRC-car driver did hit that chicane. Do you want some privateers to get penalty?
    "quattro best 4wd rallycar ever"

  5. #1564
    Senior Member EstWRC's Avatar
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    Tänaks onboard from that stage https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s0B3LSBrBpw&t=

    but you cant really see if he hits them or not, maybe he hits the last one
    Last edited by EstWRC; 23rd May 2018 at 17:11.
    "Some famous quote from some famous person"

  6. #1565
    Senior Member Allez Andruet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by focus206 View Post
    If we want to talk in absolute fairness, the stewards maybe didn't bother giving a penalty to Thierry, considering that it wasn't the PS and that +10 seconds to his time wouldn't have changed a thing.
    It's not about "bothering" or whether it changes things or not. Rules must be 1) clear, 2) same for all stages and 3) same for all drivers. And this, obviously, has not been the case here. I would agree with mr. Wilson that they have a strong case if they want to take it further.
    ku ois neljä pyörää ku vetäis ni ois vähän eri sekunnit kyllä pätkillä, sen mä takaan

  7. #1566
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    Quote Originally Posted by Allez Andruet View Post
    It's not about "bothering" or whether it changes things or not. Rules must be 1) clear, 2) same for all stages and 3) same for all drivers. And this, obviously, has not been the case here. I would agree with mr. Wilson that they have a strong case if they want to take it further.
    I'm not saying the stewards shouldn't bother, I'm saying they didn't bother and I explained probably why.
    Also 1) I agree, 2) I don't agree: rules are already different for the PS, since it gives extra points. It seems normal to me that small time gain in the PS requires a bigger punishment, 3) I agree, of course.

  8. Likes: pantealex (24th May 2018)
  9. #1567
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    Quote Originally Posted by ESTR View Post
    Yeah it will be french talking belgian. What a difference.
    It is..You ever try speak normal French to a Walloon? Amd if they know your name..mine is van Landingham (originally back in Belgium it was van Landeghem) and suddenly they not only don't understand normal French but they suddenly are outraged..about something
    John Vanlandingham
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    Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

  10. #1568
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    Funny how they call him "French talking Belgian" while little more than 10 years ago he almost didn't speak French at all. He quickly learnt French very well, which was important for his career as a rally-driver. Anyway, the language he speaks and the region he comes from is unimportant. Among rally enthusiasts he's just as popular in all parts/communities of Belgium.

  11. Likes: AnttiL (23rd May 2018),cali (24th May 2018),EightGear (23rd May 2018),Hartusvuori (23rd May 2018),pantealex (24th May 2018)
  12. #1569
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    Quote Originally Posted by tommeke_B View Post
    Funny how they call him "French talking Belgian" while little more than 10 years ago he almost didn't speak French at all. He quickly learnt French very well, which was important for his career as a rally-driver. Anyway, the language he speaks and the region he comes from is unimportant. Among rally enthusiasts he's just as popular in all parts/communities of Belgium.
    I´d like to add, that as an international rallyfan, to me it doesn´t matter from where you come, as long as it is a competent, naturally talented, humble and nice guy, the driver will be popular anyway.
    Having said that, I mean it can be said about all the guys in the circus.
    "Reis vas pät pat kaar vas kut"
    Tommi Mäkinen, back in the years...

  13. Likes: AnttiL (23rd May 2018),cali (24th May 2018),pantealex (24th May 2018)
  14. #1570
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC View Post
    The Ogier PS penalty row returns...

    https://www.autosport.com/wrc/news/1...-the-wrc-title

    You can see from the article why M-Sport and Ogier are so disappointed, as there are so many inconsistancies...
    Well...

    talking about details in the appeal:

    - M-Sport uses stage time differences between SS21 and SS22 to argue that Ogier did not improve more than other drivers. They specifically point out that Meeke (who got worse time) should not be counted. At the same time they don't mention that Mikkelsen (the only driver with more improvement than Ogier) had a spin in first run. if you leave him out Ogier actually did improve most of all . This is selective picking of circumstantial evidence.

    - Ogier improves his time by some 0.6s after the chicane, part of which obviously could be due to slightly different (more direct) line out of it and into the next corner (last corner of stage). They also show how he has some 10 km/h faster speed in this section trough finish. They play this down by saying it's because he had 3 x Hard tires vs 2x Hard 2x Soft in first run which should help in this tarmac section. Clearly there are other people with more data on this, but taking Portugal as example Neuville and Sordo on soft worn gravel tires were much faster on tarmac than others on hards, so from my view this is not a clear argument to use.

    - The parts about different placement and others hitting it a bit are true but don't change the fact that Ogier was the only one hitting the first part.

    ----------------------------------
    Clearly it's not 100% clear case for giving the penalty, but neither is there one for removing it. He did hit it, and did hit it most out of all competitors.
    But then there is the circumstances and "sending a message" part

    a) Ogier and M-Sport opened a can of worms with the Sweden powerstage stunt. (as is clear to everyone except Eddie, they exploited the rules. More precisely: exploited that fact that the penalty for deliberately breaking the rules did not hurt given PS points). This exploit (which FIA should have thought about immediatelly when they started giving PS points) might also decide the title in the end.

    => If Ogier/M-Sport want to exploit the rules to the max there certainly is a payback element involved here.

    b) They (Ogier + M-Sport) asked after SS21 and Neuville's issue. so clearly they had to be punished when they hit most of the chicane out of all competitors on second run.

    ---------------------------

    As to the chicane issues I agree with David Evans that there needs to be consistency and clearly defined penalties (i.e. 5s for touching/moving a chicane written in rulebook).
    Last edited by mknight; 23rd May 2018 at 20:04.

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