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  1. #171
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    Since it is WORLD rally championship it need not only rallies around the World, but also drivers from outside Europe. Now there is only Hayden in works team not from Europe. Among 22 drives with points in 2017 WRC classification also only Hayden. In WRC2 is bit better situation, but still only 5 non-Europeans out of 35. Now rallies outside Europe is far from each other, so with relatively small amount of money you can do only your home rally.
    APRC has Asia cup and Pacific cup, which are useless, because there participate same drivers as in all APRC, and take two titles at once, etc. If there would be Australia, NZ, one more rally from APRC zone, it could be Asia-pacific cup with R2/R3 cars with some award like there is in JWRC, also similar could be done in South America/Central America.
    Also looks like NZ comeback question is alive only because Hayden. When all drivers, and manufacturers bases are in Europe is hard to expect they want to go in other continents. WRC should have all expected and unexpected possible conditions from freezing cold to extreme hot, from snow to dust to tarmac, and so on. Now it became "European" championship with few outside events. We already have ERC, with few rallies far away Europe and one who technically is in Asia. NZ being far from other countries should't be object of discuss, because Azores is one of the key events in ERC and it's also "middle of nowhere".
    Last edited by electroliquid; 28th August 2017 at 10:16.

  2. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by the sniper View Post
    I can't see that his argument supports that at all.
    It absolutely supports the argument. If spectators on the ground aren't the target market, there's no need to travel. You may as well compact the series and enable better use of resources, potentially more participants and more opportunities for drivers.
    Quote Originally Posted by the sniper View Post
    If anything stage side spectators are viewed as an inconvenience on most rallies nowadays by the FIA, promoter and rally organisers.
    Another supportive comment.
    Quote Originally Posted by the sniper View Post
    The WRC has the freedom to seek out the best stages/rallies in the world to make the best product/show for its global audience,
    Yes they do. But they also need to balance that against the economic factors.



    Quote Originally Posted by the sniper View Post
    It literally does.
    No, it actually doesn't.
    Never do anything you wouldn't want to explain to a paramedic.

  3. #173
    Senior Member GravelBen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sollitt View Post
    It absolutely supports the argument. If spectators on the ground aren't the target market, there's no need to travel. You may as well compact the series and enable better use of resources, potentially more participants and more opportunities for drivers.
    If spectators on the ground aren't the main target market, there is no need to limit the championship to highly populated regions - you can use a wider variety of more interesting less populated places chosen for the best roads, variety of conditions, different challenges for crews, scenery for marketing etc.

    Your argument taken to its conclusion says why bother with rallying at all - because rallycross and circuit racing meet all your assumed 'benefits' better.

  4. #174
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    Quote Originally Posted by GravelBen View Post
    If spectators on the ground aren't the main target market, there is no need to limit the championship to highly populated regions - you can use a wider variety of more interesting less populated places chosen for the best roads, variety of conditions, different challenges for crews, scenery for marketing etc.

    Your argument taken to its conclusion says why bother with rallying at all - because rallycross and circuit racing meet all your assumed 'benefits' better.
    Rallycross and circuit racing are not rallying. Your comment around that is nonsense.
    Your earlier comment is quite correct, which highlights my point. Logistics being the criteria rather than the subjective emotive bullshit.
    Never do anything you wouldn't want to explain to a paramedic.

  5. #175
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    Quote Originally Posted by sollitt View Post
    It absolutely supports the argument. If spectators on the ground aren't the target market, there's no need to travel. You may as well compact the series and enable better use of resources, potentially more participants and more opportunities for drivers.
    Do you work for WRC promoter? You must love the idea of Rally Croatia and Turkey... Or are they too far/too much of an effort/expense too? You come across rather contrary. If we're going to keep up this discussion can you please flesh out your plan. What are you actually proposing? So far at best you seem to be advocating a return, after 44 years of the World Championship, for the WRC to return to European Rally Championship status. At worst you could be advocating turning the WRC into a Gymkhana Championship, perhaps focused of running around the car parks of the competing manufacture teams bases...

    Quote Originally Posted by sollitt View Post
    Another supportive comment.
    How does having more rounds in Europe, where there are large numbers of spectators, help that perceived problem?

    Quote Originally Posted by sollitt View Post
    Yes they do. But they also need to balance that against the economic factors.
    So rallying is too poor to maintain a World Championship, which it currently does?

    Quote Originally Posted by sollitt View Post
    No, it actually doesn't.
    No, it LITERALLY does. Familiarise yourself with the FIA's requirements for a series to maintain World Championship status.

  6. Likes: sonnybobiche (31st August 2017)
  7. #176
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    You seem very big on presumption but very light on reality. Let me give you some.

    At various times throughout the 44 years that you quote, most major car manufacturers have participated in the WRC. Now, today, most don't.
    Whenever they have ceased to participate, or not begun to do so at all, it is usually due to economic reasons.
    Ours is a costly sport and the largest cost, as with any global activity, is logistics ... travel and transportation.
    Indeed the reason touted for the promoters shying away from reinstating RNZ is that the manufacturers consider the event too costly to attend.

    Now the facts are that New Zealand is no more costly to freight into than Australia or Argentina. It may be marginally, but not astronomically, more expensive to fly the crew there. Certainly not sufficient to rule out the event. So does this really mean that manufacturers view all far away events as unjustifiably costly?
    And if that is the case, given that some of the current manufacturers are suggested to have limitless budgets, how much of a deterrent are these costs to others entering the contest?
    Would there be more manufacturers if the costs were less? Would there be more opportunities for drivers?

    My points have nothing to do with rally-cross or circuit racing or gymkhanas in car parks.
    The fact is as soon as you put something in the air or on the water it becomes expensive.
    I’d much rather see a dozen events well supported by a variety of manufacturers, and with more top drivers, than a skeleton of a championship with barely a handful of teams and no career opportunities.
    Never do anything you wouldn't want to explain to a paramedic.

  8. Likes: jparker (29th August 2017),Rally Power (1st September 2017),Rrysio (29th August 2017)
  9. #177
    Senior Member GravelBen's Avatar
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    But you haven't made any logical connection to support your claim that focussing less on physical spectators and more on remote spectators would/should result in a smaller championship condensed to areas of higher population density - all you're doing is patronisingly repeating a glaringly obvious fact that travel costs money (so does developing a new generation of car every time they change the rules)

    If the manufacturers (encouraged by the promoter) focus on the marketing appeal of 'exotic' locations more than counting feet on the ground beside stages, it should become easier for them to justify the travel cost - they like filming advertisements there after all.

    Focussing primarily on physical spectator numbers for justification is more likely to result in your suggestion - small condensed standard-format events in high population areas to make it easy for casual viewers to access, while the more-than-casual fans get bored and grumble on the internet about how much better it used to be.

    Reducing the scale, drama and variety of a championship is not a good way to improve its profile and increase support, its more likely to make it less interesting and lose supporters. At the times you refer to when more manufacturers were present, was WRC more or less global? Did they have rallies in places like Africa, Japan, NZ or was it just a European championship?

  10. Likes: leighton323 (31st August 2017),sonnybobiche (29th August 2017),the sniper (29th August 2017)
  11. #178
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    Quote Originally Posted by GravelBen View Post
    But you haven't made any logical connection to support your claim that focussing less on physical spectators and more on remote spectators would/should result in a smaller championship condensed to areas of higher population density...
    I've made no claims whatsoever about physical vs remote spectators or population density. You have ...

    Quote Originally Posted by GravelBen View Post
    But does that even matter when most viewers are following it on tv or online? If it was funded by the number of spectators on the ground rallying would be long dead.
    In fact the spectators on the ground might not even be the WRC promoter target market because they are probably not following it so much online / on tv while they're standing beside a stage. The tv/online market are the people who aren't there in person.
    Incidentally, neither have I suggested that the "scale, drama or variety" of the championship be reduced.

    About spectators though. They have their uses.
    Someone earlier, quite incorrectly, suggested that television is not a good method of showcasing rallying. In fact rallying and television are made for each other. It's an excellent television sport. But like any sport shown on the screen, it loses appeal for the viewer if played in an empty stadium. Spectator numbers are important to create atmosphere (scale & drama) ... even on the screen.
    Never do anything you wouldn't want to explain to a paramedic.

  12. Likes: janvanvurpa (7th September 2017)
  13. #179
    Senior Member GravelBen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sollitt View Post
    I've made no claims whatsoever about physical vs remote spectators or population density. You have ...
    You quoted my earlier post about those factors as being "justification for staging all rounds of the championship in and around the areas where the teams are based."

    You also said "If spectators on the ground aren't the target market, there's no need to travel. You may as well compact the series"

    Quote Originally Posted by sollitt View Post
    Incidentally, neither have I suggested that the "scale, drama or variety" of the championship be reduced.
    Ok drama is hard to predict/quantify but how is your statement "A world championship doesn't have to travel. Rallying is a European sport." not suggesting a reduction in the scale or variety of the championship?

    I agree that large crowds of spectators can add atmosphere and thats not a bad thing - I'm not suggesting spectators on the ground don't matter at all, just that they're not the only factor and not every rally should have to rely on that.

  14. #180
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    Quote Originally Posted by GravelBen View Post
    ... but how is your statement "A world championship doesn't have to travel. Rallying is a European sport." not suggesting a reduction in the scale or variety of the championship?.. .
    Are you suggesting that Europe has not the landscape, history or capacity to stage a dozen WRC calibre events?
    Never do anything you wouldn't want to explain to a paramedic.

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