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  1. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Black Knight View Post
    You can never fully judge intent. No one actually knows if Schumachers intent was to take JV out 100% except Schumacher. Maybe he just wanted to make him hobble and finish second. You can only base it upon what you see the action was. Once you start bringing in interpretation to the rules which have been set out, which is the main reason why we have such inconsistency in F1 to begin with, then you will never have consistency. For consistency he should he excluded from the championship.
    Jenson Button and Fernando Alonso donīt agree with you.

    And, FIA will investigate the whole incident, which means both Lewis and Vettels doings.

  2. #72
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    If a football players slaps another, he would get a red card and at least a match ban, in normal conditions. It's not conditioned by an injury or physical damages, it's for unsportsmanlike conduct. I think the same logic should apply in F1. I think they should get the message across that such behavior is unacceptable and that there will be consequences for anyone who can't get a hold of himself.

    I don't get the 'red mist' argument. What are we talking about here? Are we saying we should look away because he can't help himself. Is that really an excuse?

  3. Likes: truefan72 (29th June 2017)
  4. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rollo View Post
    Sure you can judge intent - The Man On The Clapham Omnibus test.

    1. Would a reasonable person have forseen the natural and probable consequence of those actions?
    2. Could a reasonable person have foreseen that result, with reference to all the evidence?

    Sure, no one actually knows if Schumacher's intent was to take JV out 100% except Schumacher but you can ask if a reasonable person based on the evidence could have forseen it.

    Aside: Everyone knows what Senna's intent was at Suzuka in 1990. He said as much before the race. He should have been banned forever.
    Well , Michael did say it was "deliberate , but instinctual" , so we can actually determine that his intent was to hit Jacques .
    He admitted to a deliberate action .
    As a devout JV fan , I wanted his head at first , but when I heard that quote , I heard him saying it was entirely his fault , and a moment when he wasn't able to control himself because of his extreme desire to win .
    He took a lot of abuse for his actions , stood up to it and took the embarrassment of it , but came back fighting .

    He earned my forgiveness , and a lot of respect for the way that he dealt with his horrible brain fade .

    We have no such admission from Sebastian .
    Only growls about a brake check .

    He's got two brain fades he needs to concede .
    One is that he was caught out by trying to stay closer for the restart , and the other that he banged wheels .

    Both could be entirely simple errors , as even the second is not so uncommon , seeing a driver alongside , gesticulating at the other , without contact , of course .


    But , to say nothing ?
    Public outcry may still prompt that meeting , and a big red stonewall may not help their cause much .

  5. Likes: donKey jote (29th June 2017),Tazio (30th June 2017)
  6. #74
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    Why the comparisons to football, headbutts, punches and slaps?
    F1, football and their punishments are nothing alike, no should they be.

    Vet swerved towards Lewis and they bumped wheels... Yes it was very silly, yes the punishment was too lenient but it was not a physical assault and being at low speed, it did not endanger Lewis.

    Would the executioners on here be saying the same if it was their favourite driver who did it? I think not...

  7. #75
    Senior Member truefan72's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bagwan View Post
    Well , Michael did say it was "deliberate , but instinctual" , so we can actually determine that his intent was to hit Jacques .
    He admitted to a deliberate action .
    As a devout JV fan , I wanted his head at first , but when I heard that quote , I heard him saying it was entirely his fault , and a moment when he wasn't able to control himself because of his extreme desire to win .
    He took a lot of abuse for his actions , stood up to it and took the embarrassment of it , but came back fighting .

    He earned my forgiveness , and a lot of respect for the way that he dealt with his horrible brain fade .
    While MSC did acknowledge his culpability in that case ,he was of course a serial violator of what can be considered ethical behavior prior and post that incident.
    We remember his fight with Damon Hill and what exactly he did to earn that championship in 1994 in Australia,
    He then tried the same thing in 197 with JV and rightly got sanctioned for it.
    His most similar incident was in Belgium 98 when he ploughed into the back of DC due to spray and in his own red mist tried to start a fistacuffs in the pit lane instead of simply doing a mea culpa
    Then Monaco 2006 ( one that Rosberg emulated, and laughably actually got a way with)
    Also trying to take out Rubens in Hungary 2013 (I think)
    Not to mention all the other little things he got away with because he was driving the Ferrari. So He never earned my forgiveness for his behavior. But has my respect as arguably the all time best F1 driver. No matter his flaws, he was supremely talented. Much the same with Senna, who I actually loathed as a driver.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bagwan View Post
    We have no such admission from Sebastian .
    Only growls about a brake check .

    He's got two brain fades he needs to concede .
    One is that he was caught out by trying to stay closer for the restart , and the other that he banged wheels .

    Both could be entirely simple errors , as even the second is not so uncommon , seeing a driver alongside , gesticulating at the other , without contact , of course .


    But , to say nothing ?
    Public outcry may still prompt that meeting , and a big red stonewall may not help their cause much .
    Yeah, i hear you on that front. Let's hope he learns from this finally, because i for one would like to see a thrilling competition without the need for all this extra stuff.
    I also thought the battle was nicely balanced already and did not need any of this extra stuff to spice it up. It was 2 competitors both at the top f their game in two different cars, going back and forth in wins and exciting races. There was enough drama, tension and interest for the championship before this incident. I'm not sure about those who think they need it to be nasty to keep their interest. Journalists i see, who think it is fodder for their paper and headlines. But for the F1 fan, this was already shaping up to be an epic year with 4-6 guys capable of winning races and Force India lurking right behind, along with Williams.
    you can't argue with results

  8. #76
    Senior Member Rollo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zico View Post
    Would the executioners on here be saying the same if it was their favourite driver who did it? I think not...
    Absolutely.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zico View Post
    Why the comparisons to football, headbutts, punches and slaps?
    F1, football and their punishments are nothing alike, no should they be.
    Why not? As a referee I have the power to send people off. If there were headbutts, punches and slaps, I'd not only send them off but report them to the association and have them suspended.
    The Old Republic was a stupidly run organisation which deserved to be taken over. All Hail Palpatine!

  9. #77
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    Senna's intent was to take out a competitor.
    Schumacher's intent was to take out a competitor.
    Vettel's intent, I think, was less sinister - to get Hamilton's attention and to display his anger at (what he thought) being brake tested. If he wanted to take Hamilton out, he would have.

    Wrong? Yes. Wrong to the degree of the other two? Not even close.
    Anything more than a 1 race ban & points on his licence is too much.

    But it does spice up the season. Every good movie needs a villain. That's part of what made the Senna & MSC years interesting.

  10. #78
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    What I'd love would be for the FIA to come out and state unequivocally:

    a) did Lewis do anything wrong
    Brake/steering/throttle vs the actual rule book on restarts. None of this "he was naughty".

    b) did Seb deliberately swerve
    Steering input/throttle etc. Did the car just get away from him or did he steer.

    I couldn't give a stuff about penalties any more. I'm more annoyed at the vagueness of the official statements.
    I just want the FIA to give actual clear and transparent answers.

    And I want Ron Dennis to give the answers. That way there's no doubt as to what's what.

  11. Likes: Koz (2nd July 2017),Mia 01 (1st July 2017)
  12. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by TMorel View Post
    What I'd love would be for the FIA to come out and state unequivocally:

    a) did Lewis do anything wrong
    Brake/steering/throttle vs the actual rule book on restarts. None of this "he was naughty".

    b) did Seb deliberately swerve
    Steering input/throttle etc. Did the car just get away from him or did he steer.

    I couldn't give a stuff about penalties any more. I'm more annoyed at the vagueness of the official statements.
    I just want the FIA to give actual clear and transparent answers.

    And I want Ron Dennis to give the answers. That way there's no doubt as to what's what.
    Well, the data has shown that Hamilton didn't do anything different to the other restarts so I can't see how he could be at fault. I guess we'll find out today. I suspect Seb will be disqualified from Baku GP and perhaps the Austrian GP as well. Although the title challenge shouldn't factor into any decision the FIA make, it is unlikely they will ban him for the rest of the season as much as he may deserve it.

    Personally, if were they to ban him for the remainder of the season I would be very proud of the FIA. It would be consistent with Jerez 97 which is the last time I can remember a driver turned in on another in such a manner.

  13. #80
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    Has anyone heard if Hamilton has said that he was aware that Vettel was following much closer on that second restart ?

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