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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duncan View Post
    I think a one race suspension would be reasonable and proportionate. I don't think anything more than that would be justified (and something like dropping all points or a season ban would be a disaster for the sport; I really don't think that will happen).

    I don't think that the rationale of Jerez '97 really applies here. In that case, we had a championship being decided in the last race of the season, and there needed to be a very strong message that the leader taking out themselves and their only realistic rival in that situation isn't to be tolerated... and I really don't imagine that anybody thinks Vettel was trying to actually crash Hamilton out of the race.

    Vettel's intent is probably going to get talked about a lot. If he did deliberately crash into Hamilton, obviously that would be very bad, but I'm not convinced the alternative of "I lost control of the car because I was angry and took my hands off the steering wheel" is so much better.

    For the record, I don't think it was intentional for him to actually make contact. But he clearly lost control of his car by being stupid and losing his temper. F1 drivers should be better than that, although I understand there's a lot of adrenalin in the cockpit.
    Of course Jerez 97 applies! The reasons, circumstances and intent around what happened are totally irrelevant! He used his car to hit a competitors. Every race in the season is worth the same number of points regardless of whether it is the season finale or the first race. If a driver does what schumacher did or what vettel did the punishment should be the same. Just because it's the season finale isn't written in the rules and never will be! The action and intent is the same.

    If I punch a competitor in the World Cup final versus the first game in the group stages should I be treated any different? Absolutely not! I get sent off and probably receive further sanctions after.

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bagwan View Post
    You did notice me saying he should have been black flagged , didn't you ?

    Are you biased at all in any way ?
    Only because of years of witnessing clear bias in the Stewards room towards Vettel

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by pino View Post
    There's nothing wrong, in disliking a person but I think you should be more objective when judging his behavior, especially when this person is a professional driver, that can make mistakes due to huge adrenaline !
    His adrenaline is irrelevant - all other drivers on the grid don't behave like that, he shouldn't get after pass just because he is prone to "red mist" moments.

    FIA to investigate on Monday. Let us hope they too don't bottle it like the Stewards:

    http://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12433/10930391/sebastian-vettel-clash-with-lewis-hamilton-to-face-further-fia-probe

  4. #54
    Senior Member Duncan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Black Knight View Post
    Of course Jerez 97 applies! The reasons, circumstances and intent around what happened are totally irrelevant! He used his car to hit a competitors.
    I respectfully disagree; I think it matters whether the contact was intended to just bang wheels or to actually take out the other driver.


    Every race in the season is worth the same number of points regardless of whether it is the season finale or the first race. If a driver does what schumacher did or what vettel did the punishment should be the same. Just because it's the season finale isn't written in the rules and never will be! The action and intent is the same. If I punch a competitor in the World Cup final versus the first game in the group stages should I be treated any different? Absolutely not! I get sent off and probably receive further sanctions after.
    I agree with that to a large extent, except for this: The fact that it was the last race of the season, and the championship was on the line, helped establish the that the intent was to take Villeneuve out of the race.

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Black Knight View Post
    Of course Jerez 97 applies! The reasons, circumstances and intent around what happened are totally irrelevant! He used his car to hit a competitors. Every race in the season is worth the same number of points regardless of whether it is the season finale or the first race. If a driver does what schumacher did or what vettel did the punishment should be the same. Just because it's the season finale isn't written in the rules and never will be! The action and intent is the same.

    If I punch a competitor in the World Cup final versus the first game in the group stages should I be treated any different? Absolutely not! I get sent off and probably receive further sanctions after.
    Jerez doesn't apply because the penalty meant nothing towards the championship. They took away points from a championship he had already lost. Before the penalty, his chances of winning were 0.0% That didn't reduce after the penalty. The purpose of the penalty was to humiliate. If they really wanted to hand him a harsh penalty they would have banned him for X races in the following season.

    I say ban him from the next race or take away his points from Baku. And coincidentally, this would be the perfect punishment for the championship race (FIA $$$) as well as it makes things closer in a season that finally has a close rivalry between top teams. Banning Vettel for more than a race would kill the season, so even if it were the right thing to do, it wouldn't happen because there's too much money at stake.
    Last edited by Firstgear; 28th June 2017 at 21:10.

  6. Likes: gm99 (28th June 2017)
  7. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duncan View Post
    I respectfully disagree; I think it matters whether the contact was intended to just bang wheels or to actually take out the other driver.
    I think we are coming back to the question of degree of intent.The fact of the matter was he displayed a red mist reaction. Whether by doing so he lost control and caused the wheels to bang into each other or he intentionally did it is the same punishable offence. The reason was that it could have caused a bad accident involving himself, Hamilton and the train of cars behind that would not see the crashed cars until they were upon them. A spectacular pile up could have happened.

    There are other consideration as well.One is that Vettel is a repeat offender of unbecoming driverly conduct. His insulting tirade to Charlie Whiting does not go unremembered. There has been other minor flashes of flared anger witnessed in the past.
    Secondly, the use of an F1 car as a weapon to intimidate a fellow driver should be seriously frown upon. As this could easily set a very dangerous precedent.

    I fail to see how Vettel should walk away from this without some very clear indication that this sort of conduct is not tolerated in F1.
    Last edited by Nitrodaze; 28th June 2017 at 21:32.
    Better a witty fool than a foolish wit.
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  8. Likes: Duncan (28th June 2017),The Black Knight (29th June 2017)
  9. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firstgear View Post
    Jerez doesn't apply because the penalty meant nothing towards the championship. They took away points from a championship he had already lost. Before the penalty, his chances of winning were 0.0% That didn't reduce after the penalty. The purpose of the penalty was to humiliate. If they really wanted to hand him a harsh penalty they would have banned him for X races in the following season.

    I say ban him from the next race or take away his points from Baku. And coincidentally, this would be the perfect punishment for the championship race (FIA $$$) as well as it makes things closer in a season that finally has a close rivalry between top teams. Banning Vettel for more than a race would kill the season, so even if it were the right thing to do, it wouldn't happen because there's too much money at stake.
    The idea of taking away the points for Baku does make sense , being that he came in ahead of Hamilton , and a move like that , whether deliberate or not should merit more than what he got during the race .

  10. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firstgear View Post
    Jerez doesn't apply because the penalty meant nothing towards the championship. They took away points from a championship he had already lost. Before the penalty, his chances of winning were 0.0% That didn't reduce after the penalty. The purpose of the penalty was to humiliate. If they really wanted to hand him a harsh penalty they would have banned him for X races in the following season.
    I agree - the main "penalty" for Jerez was that Schuey couldn't go the FIA banquet and pick up his trophy for 2nd (aka first of the losers) in the driver's championship. Big deal. He still got to keep all his wins from the 1997 season.
    Oct. 31, 1999 - one of the blackest days in motorsports.

  11. #59
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    I am also getting a little fed up how a bunch of major news outlets are describing the incident.
    Autosport and a few others are going full speed with "war of the world Champs" or "WDC leaders in latest Feud"
    the same outlets and many more others describing it as a Clash of drivers and "who is to blame for the drivers banging wheels"

    To me all that is rubbish. It isn't some kind of he said - he said situation or a scenario where they were clashing with each other or in some kind of feud.
    That would indicate both parties involved in something subjective worthy of trying to apportion blame.

    The simple fact is only one driver clumsily barged into the back of another, and then went on to deliberately drive his car into the other in a fit of rage.
    Hamilton for his part, remained calm and never sought to retaliate or even show any kind of demonstrable aggravation (which I would have done)

    But many media outlets are still playing this up like it is worthy of a debate.
    oh well
    you can't argue with results

  12. Likes: Duncan (28th June 2017),mr_swiss (30th June 2017),The Black Knight (29th June 2017)
  13. #60
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    I think the 2017 season just started in earnest in Baku. We have a rivalry akin to the Rosberg-Hamilton showdown of 2016. To make it interesting, it is a German vs British in the vein of Hill Vs Schumacher, Hamilton vs Rosberg etc.

    The controversy is sweet and we enthuse over all aspect of it with emotion and passion as two Colossus of modern day F1 do battle for the honour of winning the 2017 driver's title. If anything, it is clearly crunch time and Vettel lets out a yell as he does the Vetbang on Hamilton. The rest of the season is faced with a challenge to emulate this spectacular and highly bizzare Baku race. The price of error remains high as is the cost of dwelling on an emerging problem to Force India's disappointment.

    At Baku, F1 finally got our full attention and we eagerly await the Spielberg showdown.
    Last edited by Nitrodaze; 28th June 2017 at 22:57.
    Better a witty fool than a foolish wit.
    William Shakespeare

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