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  1. #111
    Senior Member truefan72's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bagwan View Post
    It was Lewis dropping his speed about 30 kph at the end of the corner that caught Sebastian out .
    He wasn't obligated to do it any differently the second time , but Vettel , I think obviously , expected him to have some reaction to him being so much larger in his mirrors .

    I think to look at it from Vettel's point of view before the accident , you see Hamilton slowing significantly , even though he knew Seb was really tight behind .
    And , I think that's where you get Sir Jackie's view that Lewis might have tried to unsettle him before the restart .

    From Lewis's explanation and the radio chat about the safety car close-call , I think we can surmise that Lewis had the restart plan well rehearsed , and , had Seb been able to keep out of the back of him (and note that nobody else in line rear-ended anyone else) , on the brakes slightly faster , it probably would have been a spectacular lead generated by slowing down when he did so .

    It's just not the normal place to be slowing down on a track .
    It was the way he'd done it the first time .
    And , he is allowed to dictate the speed at that point .
    But , his role was pretty clear .
    I am surprised you are still litigating the facts of the incident. All in a futile effort to deflect any kind of culpability to Vettel's action.
    Why are you trying so hard to convince yourself hamilton did something wrong.
    Can it not be for this one time, be accepted and understood that he did nothing wrong and vettel simply made a mistake and then matters even worse?
    I'm really trying hard to understand what you have to gain by finding some way, any kind of way, to apportion blame to Hamilton.
    ...Big Ben said it best, as i'm a bit tired of having to explain the incident over again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Big Ben View Post
    Actually no. Just one was at fault here. The fake jolly good fellow was sleeping at the wheel, bumped the mercedes in the back and then decided to take a swipe at Hamilton. He was wrong from start to finish which makes him look quite stupid. And in the end he decided to admit his mistake only to avoid further penalties without showing any real remorse at any point.
    there, that simple
    you can't argue with results

  2. #112
    Senior Member Tazio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baggy
    And , he is allowed to dictate the speed at that point .
    But , his role was pretty clear

    As the leading car he dictates the pace. So yes his roll was pretty clear, Vettel is at a decided disadvantage for not being in the lead. The Boss did not brake check him. Vettel should not assume what speed the leader is going to maintain right before the start. He hit Hamilton because he was too close to him. A minor infraction worth a drive through penalty. They ensuing road rage deserved a black flag!
    I have great faith in fools -- Self confidence my friends will call it.


  3. Likes: mr_swiss (5th July 2017),truefan72 (5th July 2017)
  4. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bagwan View Post
    It was Lewis dropping his speed about 30 kph at the end of the corner that caught Sebastian out .
    He wasn't obligated to do it any differently the second time , but Vettel , I think obviously , expected him to have some reaction to him being so much larger in his mirrors .

    I think to look at it from Vettel's point of view before the accident , you see Hamilton slowing significantly , even though he knew Seb was really tight behind .
    And , I think that's where you get Sir Jackie's view that Lewis might have tried to unsettle him before the restart .

    From Lewis's explanation and the radio chat about the safety car close-call , I think we can surmise that Lewis had the restart plan well rehearsed , and , had Seb been able to keep out of the back of him (and note that nobody else in line rear-ended anyone else) , on the brakes slightly faster , it probably would have been a spectacular lead generated by slowing down when he did so .

    It's just not the normal place to be slowing down on a track .
    It was the way he'd done it the first time .
    And , he is allowed to dictate the speed at that point .
    But , his role was pretty clear .
    Not every situation always has two people to blame, Bagwan. This is clear cut and dry as scenarios come. There was zero fault on behalf of Hamilton. Your post is bordering on being ridiculous and desperate.

    There is firstly no evidence to suggest Hamilton knew Vettel was closer. And even if he did, there is still no reason as to why he should have approached that safety car restart any different than the previous. You can't let another driver dictate your actions and preparation for a restart just because they are closer than the previous time, especially when you have the right of way to begin with. It is and always has been, in that situation, the responsibility of the following driver to look after themselves, not the car in front. To lay any blame on Hamilton for this is not alone ridiculously stupid but very much delusional.

  5. #114
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    My honest impression about this whole debate now:


  6. Likes: donKey jote (6th July 2017),pino (5th July 2017)
  7. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by truefan72 View Post
    the Tour de France folks showed more guts and integrity than the Baku Stewards or the FIA
    That is how you handle the situation and oddly enough it was comparatively similar to what went down in Baku...in terms of behavior intent etc.
    That's highly debateable too. The BBC's Rob Hayles saw no malicious intent on the part of Sagan and reckons the commissaires over-reacted. In the head-on slo-mo it does look like Cavendish has hit the hip or thigh of Sagan and is already on the way to the scene of the accident before the elbow comes out. It was Sagan's move that caused it but he was trying to find room for himself, not to take Cavendish out. The guy in front of Sagan switches from right to left so Sagan switches from left to right, squeezing Cavendish who's already coming up on Sagan's right into the barrier.

    It's more like the Kimi/Bottas collision or various other racing collisions we've seen, than it is like Vettel's shenanigans under safety car conditions. For both Vettel and Sagan I think the officials have issued unjust penalties: one too lenient, one too harsh. In both cases they're vilified for it. Who'd want that job?

  8. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by truefan72 View Post
    I am surprised you are still litigating the facts of the incident. All in a futile effort to deflect any kind of culpability to Vettel's action.
    Why are you trying so hard to convince yourself hamilton did something wrong.
    Can it not be for this one time, be accepted and understood that he did nothing wrong and vettel simply made a mistake and then matters even worse?
    I'm really trying hard to understand what you have to gain by finding some way, any kind of way, to apportion blame to Hamilton.
    ...Big Ben said it best, as i'm a bit tired of having to explain the incident over again.



    there, that simple
    Do you even read my posts ?

  9. Likes: donKey jote (6th July 2017)
  10. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Black Knight View Post
    Not every situation always has two people to blame, Bagwan. This is clear cut and dry as scenarios come. There was zero fault on behalf of Hamilton. Your post is bordering on being ridiculous and desperate.

    There is firstly no evidence to suggest Hamilton knew Vettel was closer. And even if he did, there is still no reason as to why he should have approached that safety car restart any different than the previous. You can't let another driver dictate your actions and preparation for a restart just because they are closer than the previous time, especially when you have the right of way to begin with. It is and always has been, in that situation, the responsibility of the following driver to look after themselves, not the car in front. To lay any blame on Hamilton for this is not alone ridiculously stupid but very much delusional.
    I've told you cats that I think Seb should have been black flagged .

    I've told you that Lewis was not obligated to do it any differently .


    But , he did drop that speed at the exit of that corner , catching out his opponent badly , so all and sundry should not be saying he wasn't involved at all .
    I'd like to point out that this line of conversation began with my response to Mia , who insinuated Lewis was partly responsible .

    I'd also point out that I didn't use the words "delusional , ridiculous , desperate , or stupid" in my response .

    I did concede , though , that Lewis slowing significantly started the sequence .

  11. Likes: Mia 01 (6th July 2017)
  12. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bagwan View Post
    I've told you cats that I think Seb should have been black flagged .

    I've told you that Lewis was not obligated to do it any differently .


    But , he did drop that speed at the exit of that corner , catching out his opponent badly , so all and sundry should not be saying he wasn't involved at all .
    I'd like to point out that this line of conversation began with my response to Mia , who insinuated Lewis was partly responsible .

    I'd also point out that I didn't use the words "delusional , ridiculous , desperate , or stupid" in my response .

    I did concede , though , that Lewis slowing significantly started the sequence .
    Mia tends to come in a drop a bombshell very now and then just for the fun of it. Just because she did doesn't mean you have to agree with her.

    First you said "It's just not the normal place to be slowing down on a track " and actually it is before the restart of a safety car.
    Second you said "But , his role was pretty clear ." This tends to lead one to the conclusion that you actually lay some blame upon Hamilton, even after he has been absorbed of all blame and was as blameless as anyone possibly can be in any incident.

  13. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Black Knight View Post
    Mia tends to come in a drop a bombshell very now and then just for the fun of it. Just because she did doesn't mean you have to agree with her.

    First you said "It's just not the normal place to be slowing down on a track " and actually it is before the restart of a safety car.
    Second you said "But , his role was pretty clear ." This tends to lead one to the conclusion that you actually lay some blame upon Hamilton, even after he has been absorbed of all blame and was as blameless as anyone possibly can be in any incident.
    First , I'm sure you meant "absolved" , rather than "absorbed" .

    Now , dropping 30kph in short order when exiting the corner prompted Vettel into thinking it was a brake check , so , though the brakes weren't touched , and the traces said he acted the same way he had the first time , that , in itself is significant .
    Now , as you mentioned , have no way of telling whether Hamilton knew if he was as close as he was .

    But , here's where Lewis had the choice of whether to slow right there or not .
    It was clearly a good tactic to time his arrival at the safety car line as the car went off track , so no complaint there .
    And , it's a good tactic , slowing down the pack behind , so that you may dictate when you go , so , no complaint there either .

    But , if he was aware the Sebastian was there , he ought to see dropping 30 kph was putting his own ride in danger .
    And that's the only blame I think you can attach to Hamilton here .

  14. Likes: Mia 01 (6th July 2017)
  15. #120
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    I admit Seb was in the wrong steering in to Lewis, the red mist was blinding him. But it was Lewis who started the incident. Just because you canīt throw the rulebook on him dosenīt mean he was not in the wrong. Lewis did this one wery nice.

  16. Likes: Bagwan (6th July 2017),BleAivano (7th July 2017)

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