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  1. #1421
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    Quote Originally Posted by sonnybobiche View Post
    First of all, you're claiming, again, a binary distinction between a 'stupid' place to stand and a 'not stupid' place to stand. I don't think that is really accurate. Some people are willing to tolerate more risk than others. Many people would not be willing to stand along a fast straight, for example, but others would be comfortable there. Risk assessment is a personal thing. The organization can dictate whether certain risks are permissible or not, but is dishonest to pretend that it is anything other than an arbitrary distinction.

    Second of all, one of the big complaints made by the media refers to spectators standing too close to the road, period. I'm thinking of this quote from David Evans' autosport piece "Crews were incensed at safety breaches on the stages, with spectators overpowering the marshals to stand just inches away from cars passing at competitive speeds." Yes, david, if by inches you mean feet, and if you ignore the fact that this was along a straight, then that sounds really dangerous. But it probably wasn't too too dangerous, as evidenced by the fact that no one was hit by a car.

    I read this piece, again by evans, and I'm left wondering what was so dangerous about the spectators' behavior. https://www.motorsport-news.co.uk/co...-rally-poland/

    Looking at Evans' own pictures, the crowd was like 10 feet back at first, and after seeing three or four cars pass at competitive speeds, the crowd collectively came to the conclusion that they were stupidly far away and came to within 3 or 4 feet of the cars. And still, no one was hurt. What is the problem with this? Why is 10 feet back and behind the trees considered "safe", but 3-4 feet away from the road considered an unacceptable danger? I suspect it's because there's a group of people that want to replace Rally Poland with something else, presumably NZ.

    Now, I wouldn't have a problem with making some arbitrary distinction between acceptable and unacceptable places to stand if I thought the rules would stay the same from now on. But it's clear that there's a push from the ruling class of motorsport and governments to make things safer and safer, and I think there's no limiting principle to that. It used to be that standing a few feet away was acceptable. Now it's behind the trees. Eventually there will be no spectating allowed. And not long after that, I think there won't be any rallying allowed, period. You have to have some principles. Arbitrarily deciding what is considered too dangerous today is not a principle.
    There are stupid places, and more stupid places. And safe places. In rallies in Sweden, Finland and everywhere. Spectators watching stages on stupid places seems to be more common in the Polish round. Don´t argue against that if you want to be seriously respected on this forum.
    "Reis vas pät pat kaar vas kut"
    Tommi Mäkinen, back in the years...

  2. Likes: OldF (10th July 2017)
  3. #1422
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rallyper View Post
    There are stupid places, and more stupid places. And safe places. In rallies in Sweden, Finland and everywhere. Spectators watching stages on stupid places seems to be more common in the Polish round. Don´t argue against that if you want to be seriously respected on this forum.
    The truly "safe" places are hundreds of feet back, farther than what anyone would consider necessary today. Key word being today.

    As for "stupid" places, is it "stupid" to be 3-4 feet away from the cars on a fast straight? Because that was called out as stupid by Evans and others in the media.

    I don't much care for respect, but I do ask to be logically debated on the merit of the arguments, not how seemingly nice or popular an argument is.

  4. #1423
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kris82 View Post
    First calls a guy a condescending idiot and then tells him to grow up and show some respect. You, sir have issues and should focus on sorting those out before lecturing others. Best way to teach others is to lead by example.
    How so? I called him on his lecturing everyone, which is condescending. There are people on here in the rally industry, competitors and people working behind the scenes in rally teams and involved in running international events for many years at levels where they make a real difference and know what they are talking about, and he deems it necessary to lecture everyone about how they are all wrong, and he is the only one who can see what is right. Therefore I believe he needs to show the people he insults some respect. How does that cause me to have issues?
    Last edited by Munkvy; 10th July 2017 at 10:10.

  5. Likes: OldF (10th July 2017)
  6. #1424
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    Well, it is stupid to stand just next to the road in the outside of the exit of a corner that involves a sideways jump at 150kph. It is stupid to be sitting down with a camera in your hand in the inside of a fast blind corner where they cut on the edge of the road. It is stupid to stand against the road after a jump. It is stupid to be completely drunk and so close to the road. You don't need to argue about that. Rallying is never completely safe, after having visited more than 200 events I also had a close call with a car once, on a place I first thought was safe, that was 50 meters after a junction where the cars nearly stood still. Rallying always involves some danger, as you say. But in Poland some people seem to ask for it, and it must go wrong sooner or later. There's no point to debate that. What happened in Poland is not acceptable for a sport, and especially on this level. Besides that you shouldn't call people on this forum outside observers, some people you are talking to here have more experience in rallying than you can imagine. Talking for myself, I've been in Poland 3 times now, as a spectator, it was the 4th time I've seen the new WRC cars in action. It's the most spectacular event you can imagine, no need to debate that. But it could be just as exciting without having to risk your life.

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  8. #1425
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    Quote Originally Posted by sonnybobiche View Post
    The truly "safe" places are hundreds of feet back, farther than what anyone would consider necessary today. Key word being today.

    As for "stupid" places, is it "stupid" to be 3-4 feet away from the cars on a fast straight? Because that was called out as stupid by Evans and others in the media.

    I don't much care for respect, but I do ask to be logically debated on the merit of the arguments, not how seemingly nice or popular an argument is.
    Kinda hard to follow your arguments at times. Inverted commas on various words like safe and stupid? What does that mean? Do you think it's safe to stand a metre from a speeding car?
    Last edited by noel157; 10th July 2017 at 14:55.

  9. #1426
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    Quote Originally Posted by sonnybobiche View Post
    The truly "safe" places are hundreds of feet back, farther than what anyone would consider necessary today. Key word being today.

    As for "stupid" places, is it "stupid" to be 3-4 feet away from the cars on a fast straight? Because that was called out as stupid by Evans and others in the media.

    I don't much care for respect, but I do ask to be logically debated on the merit of the arguments, not how seemingly nice or popular an argument is.
    Well, shit can happen even on long straights (hit a stone, loose a wing etc etc etc.) and the first few feet is the most dangerous place to be, because this is where the car can go a little wide or can be thrown while recovering from a slide. Standing 10 feet of the road might not save you as well, but it increases your survival chances significantly.
    And, yes, motorsport will never be 100% safe, but it is always possible to minimize risks, without taking too much fun.

  10. #1427
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    It's time to close this thread
    Never stop dreaming because one day it might happen.

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  12. #1428
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    Amen
    Tänak: "Better than I expected. Lots of sideways - and we enjoy that."

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