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  1. #41
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    Fact is that currently EVs are not suitable for long distance driving no matter how many charging stations you put on the route. Let's say you drive from Calais to Prague, pretty much 1100km on motorways. Google estimates it roughly as a 10 hour drive, so the average speed would be around 110km/h.

    Mknight, you said your colleague did 250km stint on the Autobahn. So that would mean 4 stops with fully charged batteries. According to the Tesla website the supercharger charges the 90kW Model S in 75 minutes. So that would mean 5 hours (4x75min) of "resting" on top of the 10 hour drive. Having done that route, I'd say you'd normally make 3-4 stops as well, but none of them would last that long. Even a lunch stop isn't usually that long.
    Never stop dreaming because one day it might happen.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by mknight View Post
    When you drive 800 km do you only use a 2 min stop? Well maybe you do but 95% of people will have 1-2 stops with toilet/food etc breaks. As I said right now with realistic breaks it is slightly slower in an electric car, but certainly not "unsolvable".
    Of course I do stop. But I don't need to wait half a day before 10 cars ahead of me recharge. You still don't understand what it takes to change all the traffic on motorways to electric. It's simply impossible to multiply all fuel station capacity by 30 in foreseeable future, mainly from financial reasons but only them. This is simple mathematical fact.

    Quote Originally Posted by mknight View Post
    Also even if you only stick to the current petrol station network. How much of the area where you can park is actually used for refuelling? 10%? With charging it is much easier to use the whole area. It's also much easier to build a dedicated charging station than a petrol station. In Germany petrol stations on motorways often have 50km or more between, at the same time there are parking areas much more often. Adding charging stands on all of them is not that much of a problem.
    Again 30x times bigger capacity is needed. You can't create that by a magic wand. We're speaking about huge change which needs money and time.

    Quote Originally Posted by mknight View Post
    With electric car you have a fuel station in every garage and in some countries in pretty much every parking lot already now. This takes care of all the charging bare the (for most people) few long range trips. Yes if everyone has an electric car you need a lot of them, but as the numbers of cars is rising slowly the number of connection points has no problems keeping up.
    The discussion is about long range traffic. I said already that I do support electrification of city traffic.

    Quote Originally Posted by mknight View Post
    It's somehow hard to take your "unfeasible" arguments seriously when every 5th car I meet every day is electric and when about 1/4 of the people I know drive them. When I look out of the window right now I see a parking lot with about 90 cars, out of these 20 are fully electric and they are all plugged in and there are some empty charging slots.
    Today roughly 1% of cars in Germany are electric (2015 it was 0,75%) and they are very seldom used on motorways. When I travel through Germany I often drive 160-180 km/h for long distances and I'm nowhere close to being the fastest. For example most my business trips take places in a German office some 400 km from my place. If You drive that sometimes twice per week You really do value the time You can safe on the trip. And that's pretty common for many people.

    Quote Originally Posted by mknight View Post
    Sure a change like that doesn't happen over a few months, but here it's already well on the way.
    It will take long, to create all infrastructure and also to change the people's mindset. It's not going to be prepared any time soon.

    Quote Originally Posted by mknight View Post
    EDIT: My Tesla driving colleague tells me he typically stopped after 250 km on autobahn. With 75 km/h average on normal roads around 400 km is normal. (Note that your graph is for 85 kwh). Anyway all this is just arguing about details, my point is.. it is certainly not unsolvable problem, neither range nor charging.
    It's no unsolvable but not in a near future. That was my point and I'm pretty sure that the carmakers see the very same issues which I named. In the end I work in automotive in an major R&D center which is dedicated mainly to the future driving systems.


    Quote Originally Posted by Franky View Post
    Fact is that currently EVs are not suitable for long distance driving no matter how many charging stations you put on the route. Let's say you drive from Calais to Prague, pretty much 1100km on motorways. Google estimates it roughly as a 10 hour drive, so the average speed would be around 110km/h.
    10 hours is feasible with several stops. I drive nearly every year Prague - Ypres which is nearly the same case (at least one way through Lilles). And I usually do it between 9 and 11 hours depending on the number of traffic jams on the road (common case sadly). That is without driving over 160 km/h in Germany and with driving within limits in Belgium and France (120/130).

    For example when I drive to Ypres shakedown I can start in early morning and I still comfortably arrive one hour before start. If I shall use electric car I would need to set off one day before and take a sleep somewhere on the road. I also need to spend more time planning to be aware where I can recharge in the areas where I go to. It's not like it would be possible in every village.
    Last edited by Mirek; 1st March 2017 at 12:17.
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  4. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Franky View Post
    Fact is that currently EVs are not suitable for long distance driving no matter how many charging stations you put on the route. Let's say you drive from Calais to Prague, pretty much 1100km on motorways. Google estimates it roughly as a 10 hour drive, so the average speed would be around 110km/h.

    Mknight, you said your colleague did 250km stint on the Autobahn. So that would mean 4 stops with fully charged batteries. According to the Tesla website the supercharger charges the 90kW Model S in 75 minutes. So that would mean 5 hours (4x75min) of "resting" on top of the 10 hour drive. Having done that route, I'd say you'd normally make 3-4 stops as well, but none of them would last that long. Even a lunch stop isn't usually that long.
    10 hour is without stops, so at best 11 hours with some stops (thats and average of 90 km/h). 75 min is for full charge, where the first 50% take 30 mins, so there is something to be gained, but even if you keep with 15 hours, that's 36% longer.
    Is there a difference? Sure, petrol cars are faster for long range driving. Still VERY far from "no electric solution" and "unsolvable issues". Again, how often do most people drive that far. Once a year on a holiday? For typical weekend long range driving the range is enough.

    Btw: 4630km in 55 hours = 88 km/h average:
    https://arstechnica.com/cars/2016/09...-a-new-record/

  5. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by mknight View Post
    10 hour is without stops, so at best 11 hours with some stops (thats and average of 90 km/h). 75 min is for full charge, where the first 50% take 30 mins, so there is something to be gained, but even if you keep with 15 hours, that's 36% longer.
    Is there a difference? Sure, petrol cars are faster for long range driving. Still VERY far from "no electric solution" and "unsolvable issues". Again, how often do most people drive that far. Once a year on a holiday? For typical weekend long range driving the range is enough.

    Btw: 4630km in 55 hours = 88 km/h average:
    https://arstechnica.com/cars/2016/09...-a-new-record/
    It's not without stops. I take this exact trip often. 10 hours is feasible with some coffee/food brakes. I'm sometimes even faster without racing on German motorways.
    Stupid is as stupid does. Forrest Gump

  6. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mirek View Post

    It will take long, to create all infrastructure and also to change the people's mindset. It's not going to be prepared any time soon.
    Mindset is obviously the biggest issue on this forum

    However, as I see every day around me both infrastructure and mindset can change really quickly.

    The 30x FUEL station capacity being impossible is bullshit, not a "simple mathematical fact".
    1. You can charge both at start point and at destination since average length of trip on motorways is 60 km (french statistics). So add every garage to the number of stations? And/or remove the cars that only charge at home and suddenly it's not 30x but more like 10x times.

    2. On a typical petrol station you have some 6 places to fill petrol and as I mentioned in germany they are actually quite far between. On each highway parking lot there are some 60+ places for cars, and they are typically twice as many parking lots than petrol stations.
    In this town there are 4 petrol stations with some 20 places each, at the same time there are right now about 150 charging points. (sure not all are as fast).

    Also it's not like one day everyone drives petrol and second day everyone drives electric. With growing number of electric cars the number of chargers grows as well (as proved here). On the other hand there is a big difference between no charging place and at least one. If anything it's the very first step that is difficult. Yet for their own cars Tesla did this themselves.

    Btw. the automotive industry has every reason to make the change as slow as possible. When you have invested in engine/gearbock etc. development the last thing you want to do is to throw it away and start doing something different. This is not meant as a conspiracy theory it's just a fact in every industry. Just like new generations of CPUs are only introduced after the old generation has generated enough income, even though 2-3 next generations are already developed. You sell the product you have as long as someone buys it.

  7. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by mknight View Post
    10 hour is without stops, so at best 11 hours with some stops (thats and average of 90 km/h). 75 min is for full charge, where the first 50% take 30 mins, so there is something to be gained, but even if you keep with 15 hours, that's 36% longer.
    Is there a difference?
    Is there a difference between watching one 2 hour film or three 2 hour films?

    Btw, I'm sure that Alex Roy's coast to coast with the Tesla had loads of planning.
    Never stop dreaming because one day it might happen.

  8. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by mknight View Post
    n this country the cost is "artificially" lowered by not taxing electric cars, results is that already now with the rather limited choice electric cars have had 15% market share for 3 years.




    To get back on topic:
    Ah Alt-facts make it all the way to Motorsports forum rally section..

    FIFTEEN per cent market share..
    Seems odd and I'm up in the capital of the proposed country Ectopia...and i see lots of taxis zooming around that are Toiletta Priapus or whatever the things are

    But 15%..

    Let's see what Google says...

    As of December 2016 , the U.S. has the world's third largest stock of plug-in passenger cars after China and Europe. The U.S. market share of plug-in electric passenger cars increased from 0.14% in 2011 to 0.62% in 2013. The plug-in segment reached a market share of 0.75% in 2014 and fell to 0.66% in 2015.

    Doesn't look like 15% .Something must be wrong..Hmm I GOT IT! More research!

    oh got I have to type for another whole 2 seconds---

    OK..Look
    Norway, with a population of about 5.2 million, is the country with the highest plug-in electric car ownership per capita in the world,[11][48] with a market concentration of 21.5 registered plug-in cars per 1,000 people, 3.6 times higher than California's, the leading American market, and exceeding the U.S. average concentration by 14.2 times.[81][82]
    In March 2014, Norway became the first country where over 1 in every 100 passenger cars on the roads is a plug-in electric.[83][84]
    Clever boys there in Norge... But wait, those tricky bastids were not talking per cent...they switched to per 1000! Gotta watch those fawkin statiticians!

    So California, the hottest electric car market in the whole of Fortress America™ has 0,597 electric cars per hundred..0.597%

    That does quite seem like 15%...I admit its quite close but still optimistic..

    Are t you a bot? Or a 50 cent man paid by electric vehicle manufacturer to make fake news?

    That's the thing that I think is the really biggest problems with electric vehicles:
    The absurd and childish exaggeration by their fans.

    The casual "Oh every rest stop can be a charging station"--with one blink to think what the cost would be---and costs borne by the 99.4% who do NOT drive electric cars...

    Likewise "Golly gee whiz, every car garage (snap) just like that...
    Hardware costs nothing, labor costs nothing, meters and billing costs nothing just (snap)...

    I just had to pass up a free lathe and a free milling machine because I couldn't afford to run 3 Phase electricity into the shop...I wonder how all that is so cheap to be care free in California..

    So, are you a shill or a bot for Tesla?
    John Vanlandingham
    Sleezattle WA, USA
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  9. Likes: sonnybobiche (13th March 2017)
  10. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Franky View Post
    Fact is that currently EVs are not suitable for long distance driving no matter how many charging stations you put on the route. Let's say you drive from Calais to Prague, pretty much 1100km on motorways. Google estimates it roughly as a 10 hour drive, so the average speed would be around 110km/h.

    Mknight, you said your colleague did 250km stint on the Autobahn. So that would mean 4 stops with fully charged batteries. According to the Tesla website the supercharger charges the 90kW Model S in 75 minutes. So that would mean 5 hours (4x75min) of "resting" on top of the 10 hour drive. Having done that route, I'd say you'd normally make 3-4 stops as well, but none of them would last that long. Even a lunch stop isn't usually that long.
    Batteries for electric cars and the management systems and the electric motors used on electric cars are all evolving technology, do not write off electric cars in what they are capable of today.
    Musk suggests the possibility that some electric cars might have a range of 1200kilometres by 2020. You might be able to do Calais to Prague; non-stop with an electric car. (nonstop - does not include border crossing restrictions, induction charging built into the road, might be able to charge while waiting in queues for the documents to be checked )
    http://insideevs.com/elon-musk-video...les-two-years/ (Hybrid might be the way for the logn distance, a small removeable 'hydrogen fuel cell' non polluting unit (electricity generator) in the trunk/ boot of the car to recharge the batteries on the go. ) removeable for short home town trips/ day to day commute to reduce car weight.

    You can get single phase to three phase converters. http://www.mastec.co.nz/Booster/Sing...e%20Phase.html
    Last edited by Zeakiwi; 1st March 2017 at 18:57.

  11. #49
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    Zeakiwi, I'm not writing them off. Just saying that in my opinion they are not a good all round solution at the moment. I just hope the next evolution of EVs or fuel cell cars is a big step forward.
    Never stop dreaming because one day it might happen.

  12. #50
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    Ok , yes that is why there are people with both electric and ice cars in their garage.
    https://youtu.be/Z-uFvUTDnkM?t=2m50s (Tesla 80 mph dowhill and recharging)

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