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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by stefanvv View Post
    On the other hand the electrical energy is recoverable in some proportion by the kinetic energy, unlike petrol. Thought about that?
    But how much energy is lost in transit from power plant to the car?

    It's a vicious circle.
    Never stop dreaming because one day it might happen.

  2. #32
    Senior Member stefanvv's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Franky View Post
    But how much energy is lost in transit from power plant to the car?
    For sure there is some transformed into heat. But I can use the same analogy with the loss, with transferring the gasoline from refineries to the car. Truck also burn some resources You know, and is definitively not ecological.
    "With that car, your brain can actually never keep up"
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_4IRMYuE1hI

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  5. Likes: A FONDO (1st March 2017)
  6. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by stefanvv View Post
    For now I see only the downside and ecological negatives towards electrical energy pointed out. On the flip side there has been much worse (I think) ecological disasters with much more direct impact on nature with the petrol industry. Everything has its pros and cons,
    I'm no expert, but my suspicion is that the oil industry's failures (and nuclear's come to think of it) are magnified, while the so-called green energy industry gets a pass. In my parents' native country, a battery recycling plant (how much greener could you get!?) made Haina, Dominican Republic one of the ten most polluted cities on the planet. I bet you hadn't heard of that. But I bet you have heard of Exxon Valdez, Deepwater Horizon, Three Mile Island, and Fukushima. Fukushima, a "nuclear disaster" in which no one was killed, is what most people remember about that tsunami that killed 10,000 Japanese.

    Quote Originally Posted by stefanvv View Post
    On the other hand the electrical energy is recoverable in some proportion by the kinetic energy, unlike petrol. Thought about that?
    It's a good point, and I have thought about it. We can get energy from many sources, so what we're ultimately trying to balance is the price of this source vs that one (because the price reflects supply and demand). Whether the energy savings from regenerative braking justifies the expense of hybrid technology is something I'm not qualified to answer. But I can take a crack at it: petrol powered cars cost less than hybrids, even when the government throws $10,000 worth of subsidies at you. Even then, hybrids comprise a minuscule fraction of cars on the road today, suggesting that people still don't see the value there. Maybe that will change in the future, but I don't think we should try to force that change through regulation and taxation/subsidies, because maybe it isn't actually a good idea.

    But we were talking about motorsport, right? Yeah, no, I don't care one bit for hybrids in motorsport. I would be mildly interested if they could actually beat normal cars on the merits, but they can't, so I'm not.
    Last edited by sonnybobiche; 1st March 2017 at 03:19.

  7. Likes: janvanvurpa (1st March 2017)
  8. #36
    Armchair General Mirek's Avatar
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    One thing which is not mentioned is that for many countries without own sources getting rid of fossil fuels is getting rid of horrible dependence on states which wouldn't normally be seen as friendly at all but business is business and fuel is needed. This point is political and quite an off topic for rally forum but it shall be mentioned as it is one of the reasons why some countries are pushing for what they are pushing. It's not only some environmental populism.
    Stupid is as stupid does. Forrest Gump

  9. Likes: janvanvurpa (1st March 2017)
  10. #37
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    Sorry for keeping the off-topic alive but reading about "unsolvable" electric range problems and "no electric solution for large-distance travel for near future mainly due to the long time necessary for recharging/low capacity of regarging stations even theoretically possible to be built around the main motorways" makes me wonder if you have been living in a cave for the last few years.

    Teslas and the new Chevrolet Bolt/Opela Ampera-E have 400-500km range today. Tesla S has had it for FIVE years.
    With Tesla Supercharger you charge about 270km range in 30 mins and there are newer and even faster charging standards being developed.

    Sure if you want to drive 1000km it is still faster to drive a petrol car even with petrol filling and breaks/driver changes, but not by much, specially if you also stop to eat something. How many people drive for longer than 500km non-stop regularly?

    As for the network this is just the map of stations built by a single private company, there are a few other networks as well.
    http://www.teslarati.com/map/
    "theoretically" possible?

    The only real issue is the vehicle cost, which is pretty much directly related to the battery cost. Economy of scale will lower that. (If smartphone production numbers were in the thousands each one would cost 10k USD+). In this country the cost is "artificially" lowered by not taxing electric cars, results is that already now with the rather limited choice electric cars have had 15% market share for 3 years.

    The safety issues are mostly related to fires in damaged batteries. With all the electric cars on the road now there are already statistics on that, turns out they dont burn more than petrol/diesel cars.


    To get back on topic:

    While changing the complete drivetrain is probably not a good idea at the moment, changing ALS to some sort of electric-assisted turbo should be a no-brainer.

  11. #38
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    mknight, your link pretty much shows that the moment you leave the old Europe, you are more than likely to have difficulties.
    Never stop dreaming because one day it might happen.

  12. #39
    Armchair General Mirek's Avatar
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    mknight: You don't seem to understand my point. To refuel a petrol/diesel car it takes roughly 2 minutes. even with the very same number of refueling/recharging stations You are limited to roughly 30x lower traffic than today (assuming the combustion cars normally refuel after 500-800 km). In other words for the same traffic (to replace all combustion cars by electric ones on motorways) You need roughly 30x more recharging stations than for combustion cars. That's simply unfeasible. Also what are You going to do with hundreds of people waiting 0,5-1 hour on every recharging station?

    PS The 500 km Tesla range is utopia. This is Tesla graph with dependence on speed:



    At common highway speed 130 km/h (81 mph) the ideal range is only 320 km (200 miles). Now add to that wind, heavy traffic with very unstable speed (typical German motorways), airco or heating, necessary safety range reserve and You can see that it might be often necessary to recharge after just 200 km or so. And I don't even speak about driving really fast as people in Germany are normally used to.
    Last edited by Mirek; 1st March 2017 at 10:02.
    Stupid is as stupid does. Forrest Gump

  13. Likes: janvanvurpa (1st March 2017)
  14. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Franky View Post
    mknight, your link pretty much shows that the moment you leave the old Europe, you are more than likely to have difficulties.
    There is this former colony on the other side of the Atlantic

    Quote Originally Posted by Mirek View Post
    mknight: You don't seem to understand my point. To refuel a petrol/diesel car it takes roughly 2 minutes. even with the very same number of refueling/recharging stations You are limited to roughly 30x lower traffic than today (assuming the combustion cars normally refuel after 500-800 km). In other words for the same traffic (to replace all combustion cars by electric ones on motorways) You need roughly 30x more recharging stations than for combustion cars. That's simply unfeasible. Also what are You going to do with hundreds of people waiting 0,5-1 hour on every recharging station?
    When you drive 800 km do you only use a 2 min stop? Well maybe you do but 95% of people will have 1-2 stops with toilet/food etc breaks. As I said right now with realistic breaks it is slightly slower in an electric car, but certainly not "unsolvable". Also even if you only stick to the current petrol station network. How much of the area where you can park is actually used for refuelling? 10%? With charging it is much easier to use the whole area. It's also much easier to build a dedicated charging station than a petrol station. In Germany petrol stations on motorways often have 50km or more between, at the same time there are parking areas much more often. Adding charging stands on all of them is not that much of a problem.

    With electric car you have a fuel station in every garage and in some countries in pretty much every parking lot already now. This takes care of all the charging bare the (for most people) few long range trips. Yes if everyone has an electric car you need a lot of them, but as the numbers of cars is rising slowly the number of connection points has no problems keeping up.

    It's somehow hard to take your "unfeasible" arguments seriously when every 5th car I meet every day is electric and when about 1/4 of the people I know drive them. When I look out of the window right now I see a parking lot with about 90 cars, out of these 20 are fully electric and they are all plugged in and there are some empty charging slots.

    Sure a change like that doesn't happen over a few months, but here it's already well on the way.

    EDIT: My Tesla driving colleague tells me he typically stopped after 250 km on autobahn. With 75 km/h average on normal roads around 400 km is normal. (Note that your graph is for 85 kwh). Anyway all this is just arguing about details, my point is.. it is certainly not unsolvable problem, neither range nor charging.
    Last edited by mknight; 1st March 2017 at 10:37.

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