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  1. #51
    Member Revman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by N.O.T View Post
    staring order is an issue that is discussed all the time and the rules never stay constant.

    for 2017 the championship leader starts day 1 first, the second in the standings afterwards and so on... but on day 2 and 3 the top 15 start in reverse so the person who is 15th starts first and so on...

    this is mainly due to the fact that gravel stages have a layer of soft gravel on top and the first few cars (usually 4-5 but depends on the rally) act as sweepers losing time (in some rallies it can be as worse as 1-2 seconds per km). On tarmac running first does not give you any handicap but the drivers following can gain a bit of time by following the lines of the driver ahead and seeing his braking points.

    however running first on a gravel stage can be a benefit as well when you have lots of rain a mud because by corner cutting you bring more mud into the road making it more slippery for the ones following. On tarmac rallies with lots of cornber cutting like spain and germany the one running first also has an advantage because it brings more gravel onto the road.
    Would it be a benefit to go early in the snow? I would think that after several cars you would be dealing with compact snow and ice....

  2. #52
    Member Revman's Avatar
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    ...and to clarify...Championship leader goes first on Day 1, but thereafter sequencing is dependent upon time (15th fastest goes first)?

  3. #53
    Armchair General Mirek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revman View Post
    Would it be a benefit to go early in the snow? I would think that after several cars you would be dealing with compact snow and ice....
    That's difficult question. If it's snow on asphalt it's for sure better to start later than first. Ploughing fresh snow takes a lot of time and sometimes later runners have no snow on the road at all (that's especially noticable when temperatures start rising during the morning loop).

    For proper snow rallies it's more a question to our nordic members but I would say that deep fresh snow is definitely problematic for the first runner but on the other hand with a really really cold and sunny weather the first one has no standing ice dust in the air which can dazzle following drivers. Driving on pure solid ice with nordic studs isn't a bad thing I would say. You have also no ruts like the later runners.

    That brings another point to the gravel events. Sometimes there is so much standing dust that running first is an advantage even on dry surface with a lot of loose gravel. There are events where dust is bigger issue such as Sardinia, Spain (gravel leg) or Australia. FIA sometimes make ridiculously large gaps between the cars to avoid the dust impact on the results.
    Last edited by Mirek; 24th December 2016 at 23:20.
    Stupid is as stupid does. Forrest Gump

  4. Likes: Revman (25th December 2016)
  5. #54
    Member Revman's Avatar
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    Fabulous information. Thanks all.

  6. Likes: Rallyper (25th December 2016)
  7. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revman View Post
    ...and to clarify...Championship leader goes first on Day 1, but thereafter sequencing is dependent upon time (15th fastest goes first)?
    That's right. For a good while Ogier has complained as the order rules tend not to advantage the championship frontrunner as much as the championship frontrunner ever wants, but this coming year it isn't too bad being only one day in championship order.

    I'd say also it's questionable how much of a leveler championship order really is when you consider the proportion of tarmac and gravel rallies is about even, considering that rain on gravel reverses the advantage, and that several if not most tarmac events get a lot of dirt/gravel pulled into the road due to corner cutting by early runners. So a lot of people have decided Ogier is a whiner due to having moaned about this so much at stage-ends. Of course, he still dominates, complaints or not.

    I also want to underline the earlier point that UNLIKE damn near any other motorsport, in rallying the driver is (in my view) unquestionably the most important element in success. When you are doing 80 laps or something, everybody knows the exact brake points and lines, and the external elements of the car and the team come into play much more. When you are driving a corner twice or even once in a three day event, the variability in driving technique is much more visible. Fan videos of rallies demonstrate this very well. You can see plainly on any given corner who is driving clean, who is wild, who is aggressive/sideways losing time, who is braking too hard, whose brakes are fading. So much information is visible to the naked eye that in other sports has to be in telemetry or TV slo-mo analysis.

    One car can be slightly faster, but it's not like with F1 where one team figures out a technical trick that makes their mid-level drivers suddenly turn into champions. Or at least it hasn't been - Sorry to say to a Toyota fan but Toyota Team Europe gave this method, known as "cheating" in rally, a try in the 90s. But I don't think that has worked in decades (maybe since the advent of 4WD) given the nature of the sport. In this way, despite the recent domination of the Sebastians, I think rally has the upper hand to many motorsports in being a proper meritocracy.

    P.S. what a refreshing thread
    Last edited by kirungi okwogera; 25th December 2016 at 12:50.

  8. Likes: dimviii (25th December 2016),jiipee64 (25th December 2016),Marcco (25th December 2016),Rallyper (25th December 2016),Revman (26th December 2016)
  9. #56
    Senior Member GigiGalliNo1's Avatar
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    I wonder if NOT is Santa Clause?
    GG: "I'm stinky! I needa good shower and nice bowl of pasta!"

  10. #57
    친애하는 지도자 N.O.T's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GigiGalliNo1 View Post
    I wonder if NOT is Santa Clause?
    i prefer krampus, far more exciting.
    The North Will Rise Again

  11. #58
    Member Revman's Avatar
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    Sure appreciate this forum. Great information.

  12. #59
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    Regarding snow rallies. If it have just been snowing, or there is loose snow on the road. It won't be a benefit to start first. If the roads are icy, and solid - with no loose snow on top. It is an advantage to run first, as the studs will rip into the ice, and cause the "Ice-dust" to settle on top, which in turn will make it more slippery for the next driver, and this gradually gets worse and worse for each car that passes.

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  14. #60
    Member Revman's Avatar
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    How do the cars get from stage to stage?

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