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Thread: President Trump

  1. #41
    Senior Member Rollo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starter View Post
    One important thing to remember (and many lefties tend to forget this) is that uneducated is not synonymous with unintelligent. The first can be fixed fairly easily and the second can't be fixed.
    Please define what you mean by the "left".
    One important thing to remember is that the terms " the left" and "lefties" in most profit driven media is synonymous with "everyone that I don't like".

    As far as demographics go, uneducated is synonymous with "not educated" to the extent that in America "educated" entails a college degree and "not educated" means that someone doesn't have one.


    Quote Originally Posted by Starter View Post
    That's not what has happened here. The working class is not advancing in income or status and that was a driving reason in so many of them abandoning their traditional support for the Democratic candidate.
    I'd argue that America never had a labour party in any traditional sense. People like Nixon, Ford, Carter and Reagan bascially enshrined that in legislation; hence the reason why the middle class has been almost neatly surgically removed from the economy.

    The underlying reason is R>G but as a rightie (which I assume that you are on the basis or your previous pejorative comments), you already knew that.
    The Old Republic was a stupidly run organisation which deserved to be taken over. All Hail Palpatine!

  2. Likes: donKey jote (19th November 2016),janvanvurpa (19th November 2016)
  3. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rollo View Post
    Please define what you mean by the "left".
    One important thing to remember is that the terms " the left" and "lefties" in most profit driven media is synonymous with "everyone that I don't like".
    ??? What media other than perhaps PBS in America and BBC is not basically profit driven. Without large government subsidies you still have to make a buck to stay in business. The left and right varies a great deal depending on the culture and country and I understand that, but we were talking about the recent American election

    As far as demographics go, uneducated is synonymous with "not educated" to the extent that in America "educated" entails a college degree and "not educated" means that someone doesn't have one.
    And how would you define the difference where you are? Once again, we were talking about America and not somewhere else.

    I'd argue that America never had a labour party in any traditional sense. People like Nixon, Ford, Carter and Reagan bascially enshrined that in legislation; hence the reason why the middle class has been almost neatly surgically removed from the economy.
    Not sure where you are going with this one. Perhaps you could elaborate?

    The underlying reason is R>G but as a rightie (which I assume that you are on the basis or your previous pejorative comments), you already knew that.
    You would assume wrong. While I lean somewhat to the right (as it's known here as opposed to other places) I did not support Trump nor did I vote for him. i regard him as a loose cannon (No insult intended to the very fine beer of the same name brewed in Baltimore.). My candidate of first choice was much closer to the center, but unfortunately was eliminated in the primaries.
    "Old roats am jake mit goats."
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  4. #43
    Senior Member Rollo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starter View Post
    The left and right varies a great deal depending on the culture and country and I understand that, but we were talking about the recent American election
    How do you define "the left"?
    The Old Republic was a stupidly run organisation which deserved to be taken over. All Hail Palpatine!

  5. #44
    Senior Member Rudy Tamasz's Avatar
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    In response to janvan, the so called creative class is what the modern day left looks like due to: a) the disappearance of the classic working class in western countries and; b) due to the shift of the leftist paradigm from Lenin to Gramsci.

    Sent from my Lenovo P70-A using Tapatalk
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  6. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rollo View Post
    How do you define "the left"?
    I define the left as those who believe somewhat more in the "group" as opposed to the individual. I'll be the first to say that there are places where the "group" makes sense because it can leverage things better (think fire and police departments, mutual funds, insurance for a couple examples), people leaning more to the left want to extend that to many more areas and/or also want to force people to participate.

    Here there is also the elitist attitude of many in the far left who project the image that they know what is good for me and, since I don't agree, I must be uneducated or stupid, or both, and therefor not qualified to make my own decisions about how I choose to live. Big Brother is alive and well in the left.
    "Old roats am jake mit goats."
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  7. #46
    Senior Member Rollo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starter View Post
    I define the left as those who believe somewhat more in the "group" as opposed to the individual. I'll be the first to say that there are places where the "group" makes sense because it can leverage things better (think fire and police departments, mutual funds, insurance for a couple examples), people leaning more to the left want to extend that to many more areas and/or also want to force people to participate.
    It think that we mostly agree here.

    With reference to this:

    Quote Originally Posted by Starter View Post
    That's not what has happened here. The working class is not advancing in income or status and that was a driving reason in so many of them abandoning their traditional support for the Democratic candidate.
    Maybe under LBJ and the "Great Society" there would have been economic leftist support for the Democrats but the 1968 DNC was an absolute zoo fight and that basically put paid to that as the Democrats tore themselves to pieces.

    The Republicans shifted to the economic right, following the rails that Goldwater was already on; with Nixon smashing health care to pieces and Reagan kicking the unions. But Jimmy Carter started the run towards deregulation and Clinton didn't help matters.

    This is why I don't understand why there would be traditional support for the Democrats among the working class. Logically there shouldn't be because they haven't given process workers a better deal than Republicans.
    Last edited by Rollo; 23rd November 2016 at 04:19.
    The Old Republic was a stupidly run organisation which deserved to be taken over. All Hail Palpatine!

  8. #47
    Senior Member Jag_Warrior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rudy Tamasz View Post
    Yeah, that I know. I myself neither like her, nor I trust her. She looks to me like a drone on a mission, totally soulless, artificial and determined to kill.

    I am not impressed with Trump, either. I tried to watch one of the debates and he didn't have too many smart things to say.
    I used to be quite a Trump fan back in the 80's. Mainly because he was a brash real estate operator and that's also how I saw myself back then. But since then, things have changed... for both of us. So for me, it came down to who I could vote for and not turn my stomach. I chose to go 3rd party (again).

    In certain quarters, it also didn't help her that the left-leaning pop media (backed by Hollyweird) and the leftist political elites (including Madeleine Albright, N.O.W., etc.) claimed that all criticism of Hillary Clinton was based on sexism and misogyny - and that there was a special place in Hell for women who didn't support her. Hypocritical Identity Politics and the constant whining of the PC/Social Justice Warrior types has worn thin with many people in this country, even those of us who were not Trump supporters, and are not married to one party or the other. I had no intention of voting for either one of them. But in a two horse race, if forced to choose only between the kook and the crook, I would have voted for him. And it appears that the demographic that we were told would reject Trump en masse (middle class, White women), actually went for Donald. I believe that he even picked up more Hispanic votes than was projected by the pollsters. So again, not everyone in this nation has bought into divisive Identity Politics.

    As for the types of people who supported Trump (specifically the Alt-right that we keep hearing about), IMO, some of Clinton's supporters were every bit as deplorable as some of Trump's supporters. The difference being, the media has focused solely on the miscreants who were on Trump's bandwagon and let Hillary's flakes remain very, very low on the radar. Again, that's something that many in middle America took notice of... and it did not help her with them.

    My hope going forward is that Trump realizes that he has been elected President and not emperor. Despite the fact that the media will spin things differently for him than had Hillary been elected, the proof will still be in the pudding - and the people should be able to judge the results for themselves. And even if it results in greater deficit spending (which I realize is a dangerous path to be on), I hope that he focuses on real infrastructure improvements and making sure that all present and future trade deals are both free and fair. Immigration (both legal and illegal) and entitlements are two more areas that have to be addressed. So as we begin this journey on the Trump Train, we do know that it won't be business as usual - I think that's a certainty. I just hope that means something generally good for our republic.

    BTW, it's good to see some old names pop back up again. I wondered where some of you had been (slumming on FakeBook, I suspected ).
    "Every generation's memory is exactly as long as its own experience." --John Kenneth Galbraith

  9. #48
    Senior Member Rollo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jag_Warrior View Post
    I had no intention of voting for either one of them. But in a two horse race, if forced to choose only between the kook and the crook, I would have voted for him.
    Plan:

    - Abolish primaries
    - Put seven candidates from the major parties on the ballot
    - Preferential Instant Run-Off Voting
    - Compulsory Voting
    - Elections on Saturday or make the Tuesday an official Civic Public Holiday

    Proportional Representation in the House of Reps might be a nice idea as well.
    The Old Republic was a stupidly run organisation which deserved to be taken over. All Hail Palpatine!

  10. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rollo View Post
    Plan:

    - Abolish primaries
    Either that or require that primaries be open to all registered voters instead of same party only.

    - Put seven candidates from the major parties on the ballot
    How do you decide which seven?

    - Preferential Instant Run-Off Voting
    ??

    - Compulsory Voting
    Not a chance.

    - Elections on Saturday or make the Tuesday an official Civic Public Holiday
    Do you really think that will increase voter turn out? Or will the ones who don't vote now just enjoy another paid day off.

    Proportional Representation in the House of Reps might be a nice idea as well.
    The house is proportional to population now. Or are you talking about proportional to registered party members? Or both?
    Last edited by Starter; 29th November 2016 at 15:12.
    "Old roats am jake mit goats."
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  11. #50
    Senior Member Rollo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starter View Post
    ??
    Preferential Instant Run-Off Voting



    By preference - number every box.

    The candidiate with the fewest number of 1's is eliminated and their number 2 preferences are distributed.

    Repeat process until one candidate has 50%+1 of the votes.


    Quote Originally Posted by Starter View Post
    Do you really think that will increase voter turn out? Or will the ones who don't vote now just enjoy another paid day off.
    I'd like to see your reasons for defending voting on a Tuesday in the 21st Century.


    Quote Originally Posted by Starter View Post
    The house is proportional to population now. Or are you talking about proportional to registered party members? Or both?
    The House has never been proportional to the number of votes that the parties receive. There are no third parties represented at all in the House.
    Also, apart from the at-large seats, the seats in the House are also gerrymandered to the point that there are almost no proper contests.
    The Old Republic was a stupidly run organisation which deserved to be taken over. All Hail Palpatine!

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