Austria 2016

[henners88]

No, like backing off if you see that your team mate is in a position to make it impossible for you to pass without taking a risk. Nico has backed out of moves countless time where Lewis gave him a simple choice: back off or crash. This time it was Nico's turn and Lewis chose the crash option. He should have know that Nico would use every trick in the book, even dirty ones, to avoid getting mugged in the last lap, simply because he would have done exactly the same.

It was too late to back out by the time he was squeezed. Not being able to see the guy about to crash into you doesn't help. Nico should have taken the inside line and cut Lewis off at the apex like Hamilton did to him previously.

It backfired on Nico and once again he walks away looking like the mug. If this really is about playing Lewis at his own game, he's bad at pulling it off.

[dj_bytedisaster]

It backfired on Nico and once again he walks away looking like the mug. If this really is about playing Lewis at his own game, he's bad at pulling it off.

That he certainly is. The problem for Nico is. When it comes to the more robust tactics, Lewis does it instictively. Rosberg has to think about it, which makes him come to late. The failing brake-by-wire certainly didn't help either. To me it looked like a red mist moment for both as Lewis wasn't much better. No matter how he ended off track, rejoining it safely was solely his responsibility, not Nicos. Yet they touched again. First bump goes squarely on Nico, the second one on Lewis.

[henners88]

That he certainly is. The problem for Nico is. When it comes to the more robust tactics, Lewis does it instictively. Rosberg has to think about it, which makes him come to late. The failing brake-by-wire certainly didn't help either. To me it looked like a red mist moment for both as Lewis wasn't much better. No matter how he ended off track, rejoining it safely was solely his responsibility, not Nicos. Yet they touched again. First bump goes squarely on Nico, the second one on Lewis.

They actually didn't touch when Lewis rejoined the track. Sky analysed it to death and it was close but there was no second contact according to all the views they tested. I agree Lewis should take responsibility for coming back onto the track but as another driver said, Nico shouldn't have blocked his path.

[dj_bytedisaster]

Nico shouldn't have blocked his path.

That's wrong. Nico was on the track, Lewis wasn't. Rosberg was under no obligation to leave the racing line just so Lewis can rejoin. If anything, lewis was in the wrong because he tried to force his way onto a piece of track that was occupied by a car. The rules clearly state that he has to wait until he can safely rejoin. Why do you think he has run Rosberg out of road so often in the last three season? Simples: The moment he has Rosberg off the track, Rosberg has to wait until he can safely rejoin, which especially after the start means more cars are likely to slip through before he can come back.
Unless the rules punish pushing a driver out of track limits with harsher penalties, it is a killer tool to get rid of an opponent.

[Starter]

I think what he's referring to is that there is a standing rule in the Merc team that, when one overtakes the other, the overtaking driver bears main responsibility to minimize risk.

That's not a Mercedes rule, that is THE rule.

[keysersoze]

To me that was a typical Adelaide-94 situation. Rosberg ran wide three times in the two laps before, so Lewis should have know that either Nicos brakes or tyres are fading. All it would have taken would be to brake earlier rather than later, let Nico run wide, and out-accelerate him on the tighter line. I would bet a sizeable amount of currency that Verstappen in Lewis's place would have done exactly that. He seems to have an instictive eye for where his opponents are struggling.

All this post-incident ratiocination is utter hogwash. It is absurd--ABSURD--that you would claim that you know better than Lewis Hamilton, that you would advise him how to race Nico at that point. He should KNOW Nico's brakes or tires are fading? Heck, Sergio didn't even know his own brakes were gone--how the heck is Lewis supposed to know what is going on with Nico's? If Nico was running wide, it's not necessarily down to tires / brakes--he could be overdriving his car. Who knows? The point is, only Nico (and his team) does.

I do not buy that Hamilton should have out-accelerated him on the following straight. He had already out-accelerated Rosberg and was ahead. He also has experience racing Nico out of a turn--Spain this year--and knew that the man cannot be trusted to take a normal line. Nico could have taken a wide line and still take a tight, dangerous line on exit.

The typical over-under move takes place by the driver who is ahead on the previous straight--the driver attempting to overtake understeers, so the leading driver is able to reclaim a position he never truly lost. Finally, I've never seen a driver AHEAD (and on the outside) going into a braking zone opt for the over-under--that move takes place if the driver on the inside is even or ahead.

[henners88]

That's wrong. Nico was on the track, Lewis wasn't. Rosberg was under no obligation to leave the racing line just so Lewis can rejoin. If anything, lewis was in the wrong because he tried to force his way onto a piece of track that was occupied by a car. The rules clearly state that he has to wait until he can safely rejoin. Why do you think he has run Rosberg out of road so often in the last three season? Simples: The moment he has Rosberg off the track, Rosberg has to wait until he can safely rejoin, which especially after the start means more cars are likely to slip through before he can come back.
Unless the rules punish pushing a driver out of track limits with harsher penalties, it is a killer tool to get rid of an opponent.

I'm not convinced Nico drove past Lewis as he was rejoining and was 100% sure it wasn't going to be a big impact. It was only by Hamilton's quick reactions that it wasn't. Lewis couldn't possibly have been able to see Nico with the angle he was taking to get back on track. His mirrors would have seen the run off area and the high cockpit sides would block him looking sideways. Drivers expect to be left room and in this instance Nico was in a better place to judge. I think red mist and knowing his car was knackered meant he didn't give a toss at that point. Plus he was getting ready to slow down so it was no longer about racing but limping to the finish.

Lewis wasn't investigated for the re-entry and neither was Nico in Canada.

[Starter]

Here's something for the debate. From the international Sporting Code, Article L (bold is mine):

CHAPTER IV - CODE OF DRIVING CONDUCT ON CIRCUITS
Art. 2 Overtaking, car control and track limits
b) Overtaking, according to the circumstances, may be carried out on either the right or the left. A driver may not deliberately leave the track without justifiable reason.

More than one change of direction to defend a position is not permitted.
Any driver moving back towards the racing line, having earlier defended his position off-line, should leave at least one car width between his own car and the edge of the track on the approach to the corner.
However, manoeuvres liable to hinder other drivers, such as deliberate crowding of a car beyond the edge of the track or any other abnormal change of direction, are strictly prohibited. Any driver who appears guilty of any of the above offences will be reported to the Stewards.

c) Drivers must use the track at all times. For the avoidance of doubt, the white lines defining the track edges are considered to be part of the track but the kerbs are not.
Should a car leave the track for any reason, and without prejudice to 2(d) below, the driver may rejoin. However, this may only be done when it is safe to do so and without gaining any advantage. A driver will be judged to have left the track if no part of the car remains in contact with the track.

[Bagwan]

I think it could just as likely be Nico softening the aftermath of his mistake.

You could be right that Mercedes have said the driver up the inside wins the corner, but I doubt they would agree that pushing the other driver off the track is reasonable. If Nico had have turned earlier he would have made the corner and cut Hamilton off at the exit which is perfectly acceptable. Lewis would have had to yield. He went beyond the spirit of any agreement, you'd have to say, and ended up getting his wrist slapped.

Nico did say he thought he left enough room for Lewis , and said that Hamilton turned in before expected .
Given that we judge Hamilton to have turned in when he saw he was running out of track , should we not give Nico the same treatment ?

He misread that space , no doubt , but couldn't you put that specific point at least a little down to bad grip and no brake by wire ?
The loss of brake by wire no doubt made it look worse , with no dramatic locking of tires on Nico's car , to be sure .


The "Merc rules" idea I've invented here is maybe a bit misleading .
It's not as dj suggests , about the overtaking driver being responsible .

It's about the justification you can use to push your team-mate off .

[henners88]

Nico did say he thought he left enough room for Lewis , and said that Hamilton turned in before expected .
Given that we judge Hamilton to have turned in when he saw he was running out of track , should we not give Nico the same treatment ?

He misread that space , no doubt , but couldn't you put that specific point at least a little down to bad grip and no brake by wire ?
The loss of brake by wire no doubt made it look worse , with no dramatic locking of tires on Nico's car , to be sure .


The "Merc rules" idea I've invented here is maybe a bit misleading .
It's not as dj suggests , about the overtaking driver being responsible .

It's about the justification you can use to push your team-mate off .

If Nico had turned into the corner several feet earlier but continued forward into Lewis, I would believe the brake issue played its part. But Nico has said he was on the inside so could choose his line. I think he knew he was going to the very boundary of the racetrack and I think he thought Lewis would just dive across the run off area. The fact he was in Hamilton's blind spot meant the whole thing backfired.