Rally Italia Sardegna '16

[Mirek]

I'm not a very technical guy, so please explain how exactly Prokop's car performance was improved? There was also Kubica's case in Sweden 2015 where his turbo boost went over a homologated value for some short periods of time and as stated by M-Sport this couldn't had any performance advantage and still, he got 5 min penalty. There are just some double standards.
I'm happy for Thierry though, he did a great job last weekend and was faster than Latvala.

Sorry but are you telling us that braking a seal or running an over-the-limit turbo pressure does not provide a competition advantage? M-Sport statement is irrelevant as they were the guilty party who had to make itself looking like innocent. In both cases they probably didn't brake the rules in purpose but they did.

[dimviii]

[Mariusz]

Sorry but are you telling us that braking a seal or running an over-the-limit turbo pressure does not provide a competition advantage? M-Sport statement is irrelevant as they were the guilty party who had to make itself looking like innocent. In both cases they probably didn't brake the rules in purpose but they did.

No, I'm asking what is the performance advantage gained from breaking a seal, because I don't know. The extra turbo pressure for sure gave something, but this 'something' could have been like 0,01 seconds gained, probably just the same as the total time gained since Monte Carlo for all Hyundais because of the window weight difference.

[PLuto]

It is a relevant question from Mariusz. FIA has shown in the past that the penalties for various infringements are more or less random. The stewards have absolute freedom in choosing the penalty and it is true that they have been generally a lot stricter to privateers than to the works teams, for example some were disqualified for expired gloves etc.

But regarding Prokop issue, penalty was completely clear. See regulations:

27.2.2 Should identification marks (see Arts. 26.1.6 and 63) be affixed, it is the responsibility of the competitor to see that these are preserved intact from pre-rally scrutineering until the end of the rally or until it will be allowed by these regulations to cut the seals. Should they be missing, this will be reported to the Stewards.

64.5.1 Transmissions and turbochargers must remain sealed until the end of the last rally of the link (except with approval from the FIA Technical delegate).

If the seals are found to be destroyed without the written approval of the FIA Technical delegate, a 5-minute penalty will be imposed by the Stewards at the next rally.

[tommeke_B]

Had a great rally in Sardinia, like every year. One of the most spectator-friendly events in the WRC. The shakedown was disappointing, but the rest of the event was ok. Also a short but very nice powerstage on sunday, far better than Cala Flumini, which they used the last couple of years. Happy to see Neuville win from Latvala, I didn't expect it at all!











A few more on my fb page: https://www.facebook.com/rallyimage/...25119710833245

[Mirek]

No, I'm asking what is the performance advantage gained from breaking a seal, because I don't know. The extra turbo pressure for sure gave something, but this 'something' could have been like 0,01 seconds gained, probably just the same as the total time gained since Monte Carlo for all Hyundais because of the window weight difference.

How do You know how much gain the extra turbo pressure gave? It's only Your belief since it's near impossible to determine. For that reason the maximum allowed pressure is set to prevent any discussion and it's up to the teams to keep it under the limit. If they are not sure they must have some safety margin and if they get so close that the margin is not enough than it's their problem. How much they cross the line is perfectly irrelevant. Once You are over You violated the rules. Simple as that.


Let's make a hypothetical example how crossing the line by near nothing can bring a significant advantage (not saying that it was this case).

The max. turbo pressure is 2,5 bar. Team A knows from its testing that they are able to keep the pressure 100% of the time in +/- 0,1 bar. For that reason they run on nominal 2,35 bar to be always within the limit.

Team B has exactly the same experience but studied the statistics and found that in fact for 98% of the time they are within +/-0,05 and only in 2% get on +/- 0,1. They take the risk and run 2,45 bar nominal. During the whole rally they have approximately 0,1 bar more pressure than their rival and everything is ok but one day the pressure gets over by veeery small margin so they can say that such violation has no impact on the performance while in fat they took a calculated risk to enhance their performance.

PS I'm not motoring engineer and I don't know what exact deviations from the nominal are achievable in the WRC engine so the values are just an example of the principle.

[br21]

Mirek is right with turbo pressure. And about Prokops case - it's not only about breaking the seal, but when seal is broken then you can look inside the diff, replace some parts or change setup, which for sure can give you big advantage. We don't know how it was exactly in Prokops case, but nobody knows except them, so the rule made by FIA is good. They don't check preloads, ramps, FFs, etc, they just seal what they receive and control the seal during next events, plain simple.

[Mariusz]

Makes sense. Thank you for the explanation.

[makinen_fan]

It is a relevant question from Mariusz. FIA has shown in the past that the penalties for various infringements are more or less random. The stewards have absolute freedom in choosing the penalty and it is true that they have been generally a lot stricter to privateers than to the works teams, for example some were disqualified for expired gloves etc.

Thats true that penalties are not always consistent when there are is no clear cut penalty in the regulations. For homologation infringements, it is understandable to have massive variation depending on the nature of infringement.
As for the stewards being less strict with works teams, I have not really noticed that to be honest. I expect works team to be a lot more careful not to break the rules but also the stewards to trust them a bit more that they are not doing anything stupid.

What worries me the most with the Hyundai case, is that they were running these windows for 6 rallies and nobody have noticed it until now. One wonders what other parts are illegal (from any of the works team and maybe intentionally or by genuine mistake) and are not noticed during scrutineering.

[bluuford]

well.. assistant tehnical delegate was Estonian, they notice everything :P