Group A cars

[RAS007]

That's true. I remember watching TV reports from Italian championship in the nineties. I think it was the most exciting national championship in the world. I remember all those great cars like Subaru Impreza 555, Toyota Celica GT-Four, Ford Escort RS Cosworth, Lancia Delta Integrale... Plus all those great drivers like Aghini, Dallavilla, Cunico, Liatti, Longhi, Andreucci, Travaglia, etc... There were 10-20 top group A cars on almost each round and those cars were super spectacular! Just have a look at the results of 1997 Piancavallo Rally (European and Italian championship round):
http://ewrc-results.com/final.php?e=...ancavallo-1997

Man alive! Those were the days indeed. Where did it all go wrong?

[janvanvurpa]

The first year (1987) of gr.A was a shock: ''narrow'' lancia Delta HF 4x4, underpowered Mazda 323, Audi Quattro,FWD Golf GTI 16V.....

But when I remember Subaru Impreza, Toyota Celica GT 4WD, last Lancia Delta HF Integrale evolution; well then I get a smile on my face...the cars were very very spectacular, very loud, much more sideways than any today's R5/S2000, WRC......the power was almost the same as a modern WRC, but the tyres & the car's width & suspension-all this facts are recipe for a spectacular handling.
And not to forget : the glorious engine sound from Subaru exhaust system ! Every time when I'm in San Marino at Rally Legend those cars are on my favourite list......

Ahhh yes! Maybe the joke gets lost except in Engleski but people used to say those Group A Legacy sounded like a big farting elephant....and since I am the un-official "bestower of names" in America I christened Legacy to " Le Gassy" and now even some guys who still rally them adopt that themselves..

It is kind of interesting to look back and see how 1 rules change can make so much downstream effect...I talked with mechanics and several guy who ran early Lancia and I know from personal experience rebuilding Mazda 323 box and those guys said "Yeah the Lancia goes so good but if one thing happens in the gearbox, just put it on the trailer, you're going home" (This is in contrast from those same guys recent experience in such wonderful cars as the Best Car in All Human History the Group 4 Escort where good guys could swap out a broken gearbox in 9-12 minutes)...The Japanese simple had nothing that would last a whole Leg, much less a whole rally---remember rallies used to be 2 or even 3 times more SS km..
That one rule "One additional heavy duty gearbox may be homologated" and suddenly Toyota, Mitsubishi, and Subaru (and maybe Mazda and for sure Opel for the great Kadett GSI) find their way to Woking in Surrey and a few million later X-trac has given them a box that lasts AND can be swapped in in service...and now suddenly the heat in the SS is turned way up..
One simple rule.

One thing leads to another...

[janvanvurpa]

Man alive! Those were the days indeed. Where did it all go wrong?

Ford and somebody else, I think Toyota, were having difficulty with the 5000 units in one year rule.
Mitsubishi and Subaru had no problem selling as many Evos and Impreza STI as the could make on the Japanese, Hong Kong and Singapore markets and in those days of relatively crude differentials front center and rear, their cars worked, But Toyota was having more and more problems with their cars after the "GT4" or ST 165....The ST185 didn't work as well and the ST205 was really a problem (I say the cars got too swoopy, too stylish and long nose made the EAT front tires) and Ford was stuck with Escort Cosworth which was TONS better on tarmac than the exact same powerplant in the Sierra and Sapphire, but it was still SUPPOSEDLY or ALLEGEDLY "getting outdated"--especially in the entire rear subframe with trailing arms) and the fact that the basic Sierra was ending production and we all know the Escort Cosworth is just a shortened Sierra floor with modded Escort bits tacked on..So they had nothing suitable on the horison to replace Escort Cos..
I head Toyota and Ford worked a trade with Subaru to first step lower minimum numbers to 2500 and then to get a waiver for "World Rally Car Escort" and allow Toyota to make the World Rally Car Corolla...and Subaru went along...

And there was the crack that allowed the thin edge to get hammered in which led to the debacle of the space satellite car we have now which have zero connection to reality.

[jonkka]

Ford and somebody else, I think Toyota, were having difficulty with the 5000 units in one year rule.
Mitsubishi and Subaru had no problem selling as many Evos and Impreza STI as the could make

Please, do not confuse "manufacture" and "sell". Regulations required manufacturer to build required amount of cars, not to sell them. Understandably, most manufacturers wanted to sell those to get money back but it was not requirement for homologation purposes.

Why GrA was abandoned in favour WRCar is open to debate but in my humble opinion it was mainly done to open a LEVEL playing field for smaller manufacturers too (look at likes who entered WRC after WRCar concept was introduced, eg. Skoda, Seat, Suzuki, maybe Mini but that's another story). These never sold enough cars or made enough money from them to justify building a special to form GrA rally car base. For them, WRCar rules was the way to go.

[Mirek]

I thought it was mainly Peugeot asking for WRC regulation but also Ford as Jan wrote. The gr.A became too expensive for manufacturers and what is also important very inflexible. You can do quickly some modifications on WRC car but the same process takes many months if not years when You need to go through stock production. My job is stupid interior controls but even with something like airco controls You need around two or three years to get a new product into production. The process is hugely complex and slow and it becomes even more slow and complex when You need to change something what already is in production.

This came only with time and that's why it's an issue which didn't exist in such a scale in the past. The development of production methods towards maximum efficiency escalated hugely in 1990' with the advance in computers and robotics.

I also think that the main problem for new manufacturers was not the scale of required production (although it definitely was a big problem as it was extremely expensive) but the know-how they simply didn't have. For making a WRC they could use specialized companies for development and even low-scale production of parts while for stock production it's something completely different. For example at the start of WRC program Škoda paid Prodrive to give them something to start with as in five years they jumped from super simple F2 Favorit with carburettor engine to full-active WRC.

[janvanvurpa]

I thought it was mainly Peugeot asking for WRC regulation but also Ford as Jan wrote. The gr.A became too expensive for manufacturers and what is also important very inflexible. You can do quickly some modifications on WRC car but the same process takes many months if not years when You need to go through stock production. My job is stupid interior controls but even with something like airco controls You need around two or three years to get a new product into production. The process is hugely complex and slow and it becomes even more slow and complex when You need to change something what already is in production.

This came only with time and that's why it's an issue which didn't exist in such a scale in the past. The development of production methods towards maximum efficiency escalated hugely in 1990' with the advance in computers and robotics.

I also think that the main problem for new manufacturers was not the scale of required production (although it definitely was a big problem as it was extremely expensive) but the know-how they simply didn't have. For making a WRC they could use specialized companies for development and even low-scale production of parts while for stock production it's something completely different. For example at the start of WRC program Škoda paid Prodrive to give them something to start with as in five years they jumped from super simple F2 Favorit with carburettor engine to full-active WRC.

Yeah, good points...For example for was using YBB/YBG Cossie which the block began life as ordinary old T88 2,0 Pinto...Old 2wd car began life with very very short rods--relative to stroke..The rods were 128.52mm center to ceter..That was +2mm from the old Pinto. Piston was down 2mm from Pinto's 41,6mm..OK some improvement...

And POFF! they were locked in from the 3 door until they homologated the "World Rally Car" on 1 Jan 1997. And what do you see on 1 Jan 97? Something I had been doing forever (at least since 1987) on Fords and Opel's old CIH Manta and Ascona motors and now hundreds of sets for Volvos: LONGER RODs..
Ford had I think it was +10mm on rods so the piston was, from center of pin to top barely 30mm---and since I do this alll the time
And if fact just did some 139mm rods for an Escort MkII in Sweden AND! a Saab 99 in the same team (stock was 134mm he got 144mm so same as we talking above)---they save at least 300-330 grams of piston weight...and I am telling you to get rid of reciprocation weight of piston is all round a nice thing....
In addition there is less angle on the rod and that equals more power into the crank, and less side thrust pushing the pisston into the wall of the cylinder..

10 years they were locked in...

I undersatnd the "outsourcing" of the development work, too. Mainline production is mainline..

And yeah opened up development for --at the beginnink--lots of OEMs...

But by NOT limiting how crazy the could go it became these space-ships and unlimited in a way---and that drove OFF nearly everybody but 1-2 manufacturers.

Like everything in life finding the balance between freedom and rules is the hard thing...

I also find the requirement that a brake bell MUST have some MFG PN stamped or etched in or you are thrown out a serious outrage.. I make those, I know what material and machine time costs....make it required that you buy from Malcolm and it costs 3 times as much--and he certainly can make them more rationally than I can in series of 20...Why 3 times more valuta?

[Arnold Triyudho Wardono]

For example at the start of WRC program Škoda paid Prodrive to give them something to start with as in five years they jumped from super simple F2 Favorit with carburettor engine to full-active WRC.

I never know that..(I'm only know Proton Putra WRC which was Impreza with Mirage Asti face)

[Mirek]

It's not secret anymore. Mr. Janeba, Škoda Motorsport boss in that time, said that Prodrive was helping them a lot with transmission development. He said that Richards needed more manufacturers in WRC and was willing to help them at the start.

[janvanvurpa]

It's not secret anymore. Mr. Janeba, Škoda Motorsport boss in that time, said that Prodrive was helping them a lot with transmission development. He said that Richards needed more manufacturers in WRC and was willing to help them at the start.

That's Pavel Janeba right? What happened to him after the VW anschluss?

[Rally Power]

Ford and somebody else, I think Toyota, were having difficulty with the 5000 units in one year rule.

As I remember it wasn't Toyota. Their plan was to comeback with or without Gr.A regs; they just wanted to clean their face after the '95 restrictor scandal. When WRC rules were sorting they've accepted them but demand the 25º tilt tolerance to fit the Celica engine under Corolla's bonnet.

There's no doubt that European manus didn’t have industrial flexibility to make new 2.500 cars every time evolutions were needed, but Japanese manus had no problem, as they easily sell hi tuned factory cars at their home market (more than 50.000 units of the three GT4 generations were made and even the ST205 was kept into production till the end of 1999).

Lancia pull out was a big nail in Gr. A coffin (Fiat sadly choose Alfa DTM program instead) and Ford, staying as the only non Jap manu in WRC, pushed FIA to ease up homologations requirements (alongside other Euro manus eager to get into WRC).

At that time the 2wd Kit Cars were already having more liberal regs, that inspired the launch of the new special 4wd rally car category (the first time FIA mentioned WRC concept they’ve call it Super Kit Car).

From the beginning it was pretty clear that WRC Cars were beyond reach for private teams and drivers, but it’s fair to say that WRC Car era generate some exciting WRC seasons, before it was resumed to the Citro/Ford battle and Loeb’s overwhelming domination.