Group A cars

[stefanvv]

Group B was huge blast indeed, but it was doomed in one way or another, probably by '87-'89 replaced by Group S, at that time it looks Group A has no chance against these specialized machines, though some of them looking strange indeed. I'm curious what would have been if Group S was reality, as seem lot of manufacturers were interested in it, even some Russian prototypes have been made.

[Rallyper]

People think the Group B cars were ugly & clumsy on tarmac, so why did their every rally have massive crowds... ?

At the time they were like mega-futuristic, uber-machines and the impression they left on people was huge. Everyone was in awe.

When Group A replaced them it was like going from seeing Concorde to watching a bi-plane !

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TtR5OOHZSp4

But in a way going over to GrA became more realistic rallying. GrB was monsters and good to look at, but also dangerous creatures hard to tame.
For me GrB was too dangerous and it was a natural step to change after Henri T accident on Corsica.

[itix]

People think the Group B cars were ugly & clumsy on tarmac, so why did their every rally have massive crowds... ?

At the time they were like mega-futuristic, uber-machines and the impression they left on people was huge. Everyone was in awe.

When Group A replaced them it was like going from seeing Concorde to watching a bi-plane !

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TtR5OOHZSp4

Biplanes are fantastic!

Jokes aside I think the following came more from the arms race of ever upgraded machinery and the extremeness of the series at the time, not because it was fantastic looking machinery.

Like Loeb and his Hill climb car. It was a great drive to watch but damn that car was ugly.

[Mirek]

People think the Group B cars were ugly & clumsy on tarmac, so why did their every rally have massive crowds... ?

At the time they were like mega-futuristic, uber-machines and the impression they left on people was huge. Everyone was in awe.

When Group A replaced them it was like going from seeing Concorde to watching a bi-plane !

What You say is true as of course in times when people used to have 60 Hp cars and the strongest available for normal men were around 150 Hp they really were kind of mega-futuristic weird looking crazy things. What I meant was pure driving spectacle. In a way it's similar to GT discussion. There are people who find gr.B and GTs spectacular and there are people who say that both are actually crazy fast on straight but quite slow in corners which is also true. Watching those space ships turning into asphalt hairpins was painful and even more when they often had to reverse.

The first gr.A cars indeed were boring as hell compared to gr.B cars but it changed quickly. The first half of 90' is at least for me mega spectacular. I am definitely "asphalt spectator" and as such I very much prefer McRae or Sainz with gr.A cars over anyone in any gr.B 4WD car to watch.

And by the way as a spectator I would also very much prefer biplanes over Concorde

[janvanvurpa]

Lasse Lampi once told that the Mitsu Galant VR4 had 393 hp with a 40 mm restrictor. He also said that the 40 mm restrictor didn’t affect the power so much because the Mitsu’s throttle body had a diameter of 41,2 mm.

A Lancia Delta Integrale with 385 hp.

http://www.mat.fi/cars-for-sale

1990 Lancia Delta Integrale Group A #458692
An original ex Martini team rally car driven by Miki Biasion on 1990 rallye Monte-Carlo.
The car has undergone a complete restoration to return on the original configuration by MAT.
The engine is 16V version and was recently tested on dyno to found out 385 Hp.

Other restrictor sizes:

1992: 38 mm
1994: 36 mm
1995: 34 mm

http://www.rallycars.com/Cars/turbo_restrictors.html

Thanks, I had a few cups of tea and smoked some ciggies I tore the filters off of so they work better and that is how I remember it now. Kiitos poiki.

And that makes sense..Restrictor limits HP..HP is torque x rpm..limit airflow limit max rpm and limit HP..
But what torque an engine makes is not so simple...

Way back in ancient times people said the Misterbitchy Gaylant and Evoand Toiletta Sillycar All-Crap had the most torque....we know cylinder bore was 85mm for Misterbitchy 4G63 and 86mm for Toyota 3GSE.....and 90,8 for Ford YB and 92mm Subie EJ20..after the restrictors reached 34/32 it became clearer that the cars with smaller bores could survive with more static compression and more boost than those with "bigger" bores...

We even saw Ford in the Duratec powered Focus go from original series 87.5mm DOWN to 85mm and I say it was not just to get thicker liner/foder, but to be able to go higher comp and high boost...because it won't really rev, so gotta make everything happen earlier.

[janvanvurpa]

"Spel för galleriet" en suedois.

Visst fan det vet ja väl
But I knowt shore eeef eat means any ting in Engrish

[Arnold Triyudho Wardono]

Why GrA Quattros (200, Coupe, & 90) are so slow..?

[janvanvurpa]

Why GrA Quattros (200, Coupe, & 90) are so slow..?

Had a good talk with Arne Hertz at WRC Olympus after we DNFed...He was co-driving then for Hannu Mikkola in the S2 Quattro...

I understood they had put all their eggs in one basket: SWB S2 Quattro...and that was finished after that event..
So they had nothing..
Part is normal German blockheadedness which in this case was a refusal to play the homolgation game....there were no alternate gearbox parts, no alternate final drives, no idea even if there was homologated decent diffs so basically they were stuck with a n.a. engine with very small bores (81mm i think--been more than 29 years, so i may be off a bit) with very small room for valves, so a low output n.a motor in a selection of very heavy cars and no gearing options other than normal road car gearing...
that's a battle lost before it begins when up against the Lancias with a basically excellent engine in turbo form, a good sized Garrett turbo (TB 0387 again if memory serves) happy to make a good 290 hp and very early boost--good snap out of corners...Good gear ratios and good final drive..

That's all just how it goes zoom..
The Audi also was maybe as long as a bus with huge overhang front and rear, --Lancia had very little and a MUCH shorter wheelbase, much easier to rotate around corners Nose End First as our friend Lundis likes to share with us...
And the Audi had the worst engine placement in all WRC history with this loooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooong 5 cylinder hanging a meter out in front of front diff, EVERYBODY else had better engine position and weight distribution,,

In short the Gp4/GrB Quattors went like hell because of buckets of power and that's it..
Freud durch Brutalität

So outclasses by the first year 8v Lancias...and it went down hill from there.

[Ucci]

The first gr.A cars indeed were boring as hell compared to gr.B cars but it changed quickly. The first half of 90' is at least for me mega spectacular. I am definitely "asphalt spectator" and as such I very much prefer McRae or Sainz with gr.A cars over anyone in any gr.B 4WD car to watch.

The first year (1987) of gr.A was a shock: ''narrow'' lancia Delta HF 4x4, underpowered Mazda 323, Audi Quattro,FWD Golf GTI 16V.....

But when I remember Subaru Impreza, Toyota Celica GT 4WD, last Lancia Delta HF Integrale evolution; well then I get a smile on my face...the cars were very very spectacular, very loud, much more sideways than any today's R5/S2000, WRC......the power was almost the same as a modern WRC, but the tyres & the car's width & suspension-all this facts are recipe for a spectacular handling.
And not to forget : the glorious engine sound from Subaru exhaust system ! Every time when I'm in San Marino at Rally Legend those cars are on my favourite list......

[Nornbugger]

The first year (1987) of gr.A was a shock: ''narrow'' lancia Delta HF 4x4, underpowered Mazda 323, Audi Quattro,FWD Golf GTI 16V.....

......

That 1st year also had nice surprises, like Ragnotti in the Renault 11 turbo, I remember watching footage of him from Portugal before heading off to watch the Circuit of Ireland and thinking there's hope for this formula!