Group A cars

[markf8691]

Just watching WRC history on WRC + and interview with George Donaldson who states by 1988 the Group A cars had developed to over 400bhp. Is he exaggerating or is this true? I always though group A was limited to 300bhp?

If it is true, why then did they decide to limit the WRC cars to 300bhp?

[seb_sh]

As far as I know they were not limited to BHP, they had limitations like restrictors estimated to limit the cars to 300bhp. In reality they had more. I'm sure someone can dig up some numbers.

[Mirek]

I think they didn't have restrictor at all (or a lot bigger one) until 1992 or so. In that time FIA came with 34 mm restrictor which by their math was enough to reach maximum 300 Hp. Of course during the years the power got a lot higher with the same restrictor.

I believe I read that Sierra Cosworth had around 380 Hp before the restrictor was introduced.

[AMSS]

I recall the first Gr.A cars had 40mm restrictor, than reduced to 38mm and than to 34mm. The latest with 40 and 38 definitely had over 400hp but at very narrow area.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

I watched that too... still amazing how the Group A cars were soon actually quicker then the mighty Group B cars !!

Didn't look or sound as good though...

[markf8691]

Yea I think I remember reading on JUWRA that they introduced a smaller restrictor somewhere in early 90s to try and reinforce the 300bhp, however didn't know the cars had been over 400bhp.

So by the time WRC cars came along in 97 the group A cars had increased in power again?

Why did they limit it anyway, was it for safety reasons?

This prob won't be very popular but some of the group A cars looked nicer in my opinion than in group B. The lancia delta S4 looked ugly I thought especially at the back, didn't look right!

[Fast Eddie WRC]

This prob won't be very popular but some of the group A cars looked nicer in my opinion than in group B. The lancia delta S4 looked ugly I thought especially at the back, didn't look right!

The first Gp A cars were very boring - Delta HF, Mazda 323 etc, looked just like a road car - but they soon developed !

[Mirek]

So by the time WRC cars came along in 97 the group A cars had increased in power again?

I think that by 1999-2000 the usual power of WRC cars was around 320 Hp (the restrictor size was same with gr.A) but the main development was in torque curve as they went for bigger and bigger turbo pressure.

Why did they limit it anyway, was it for safety reasons?

Yes

This prob won't be very popular but some of the group A cars looked nicer in my opinion than in group B. The lancia delta S4 looked ugly I thought especially at the back, didn't look right!

I like 90' gr.A cars a lot more than gr.B cars. Gr.B cars had better sound and were kind of monsters but they were also quite clumsy, especially on asphalt there wasn't much spectacular about them.

[janvanvurpa]

OK for once I can say "I know! I know!" because I was deep involved in this era..

Yes there was a "prikaz" issued from that ol nazi-lover Jean-Marie Balestre when he suddenly announced "No more Group B from end of 1986 season" I did in fact compete as driver in that very last Group B WRC event..and had a chance to talk to a lot of the engineers, mechanics and journalists including good ol Martin Holmes..
There was very stupid talk here in America that we should adpt Group A as out top catagory (stupid because there were less than 20 cars in the whole country which might possibly be re-made into group A cars) so I burned up a lot of time to prepare for that eventuality--which never came..

Part of the ban of Group B was also to nominate Group A as "the top category" and part also the "pronunciamento" that said "max power shall be 300 BHP in Group A"

And that turbo cars in rally Group A shall have a 40mm restrictor...and Group N had 38mm

The fun part was that there was no method mandated on measuring the "300hp max"

Example since I deal with the residual of this in my business daily (I make a lot of parts for old boxy Volvos) Back in the 1985/86 season of ETCC and other Touring Car championships, the turbo Volvo 240 was having a great run...lots of wins and lots of press to see a box boring Swedish car crushing and mutilating the arrogant Teutonic machines from Bayern. In all the spec sheets and interviews the guys always quoted in 1986 " viii haff 330 bhp"

When Balestre dropped the bomb, for 1987 Volvo press and people said "viii haff Tree hundert hp"

Even the normally quiet and polite and obedient Swedish journalists asked "Hooo kay vat you dooo different becuz las year you haff 330 and dis year onli 300?"

To which the Volvo people would point in some random direction and shout "Look! a moose" and then run away (very easy to distract Swedes...No matter where you are--indoors or out, just point in some direction, shout in complete surprise like its an amazing thing and say "Look! a Moose"--and they always look...hell after I live there for years I always look)

Now we were all fundementally shocked in the first half the season at 2 things: how easily and effectively the Lancias crushed all others with a simple 2.0 8v motor....and how much slower the cars looked (they were just short of approx 5 km/hr slower average speed)--even the best Lancias..

The first bright spot was Finland 1000 Lakes where Blomqvist and Vatanen came 2nd and 3rd in a sea of Lancias--that was when I began paying serious attention to Group A Ford Sierra Cosworth learning everything I could--cause i was going to get one i decided.

I've held right in my own medium sized hands numerous dyno print-outs of 40mm restrictor YB Cosworths and max power was on those around 392-394 bhp both USA, UK and Sweden

Ford RS dealer Mike Taylor or Mike Little (could never keep the name striaght) up in Northern England ran Ford's Group N program and when he was shutting down and (I'm going to build me a MkII Escort and have some fun before I'm too old",) I was buying some surplus parts and he said in the early days on 38mm restrictor, the GpN cars made "about 370-372bhp"

After a while the rules went 38mm for A and 36mm for N, then 36mm for A and 34mm for N---then finally by I think 1995 it was at 34mm for GpA and 32mm for Group N...and the cars qot steadily quicker and at less rpm as restrictor size went down...

[Barreis]

Those were the days... In Italy there were lots of private tuners who prepared group A8 cars...