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  1. #11
    Senior Member Jag_Warrior's Avatar
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    If her name was Sam Wolff and she was a male, would anyone be surprised that she/he isn't racing in Formula One?

    I don't say this to be offensive, but Susie was relying on factors apart from her talent and racing accomplishments (or lack thereof) to get her an F1 seat - namely, her gender and her husband's connections. What male, 30-something racer, who'd never won a road course race in his life (much less a championship), would even dare to think that he'd EVER be on the F1 grid? And I'm sorry, but Carmen Jorda is an even bigger joke in that respect than Susie. Simona de Silvestro was/is someone who I think, with work, could make it onto the F1 grid. She's won in lower formulas (unlike Susie, Carmen or even Danica - a lonely win on an oval means little in F1) and from what's been written, she can relate to racing engineers and gives good feedback. Plus, she's not that old, she's tough (didn't even shake after being caught on fire) and she doesn't whine or act like she deserves special treatment (unlike Danica).

    No one prevented Susie or Carmen from racing, instead of just hanging around the paddock on F1 weekends. Susie didn't even bother to try to get her Super License. I've heard that she's a nice person. But that and a dollar will buy you a cup of coffee these days. If you're a C or D student, you're not going to get into Harvard or Cambridge. And that's about where Susie's racing resume puts her. Too bad that Krooked Kaltenborn screwed over Simona, since she seemed to have the talent and ability to at least be respectable on the F1 grid.

    IMO, Susie's failure to make it into F1 has nothing to do with women in F1. Her placement at Williams was far above where she should have been on pure merit. Shame on her for thinking that her gender and family connections should afford her special favors.
    "Every generation's memory is exactly as long as its own experience." --John Kenneth Galbraith

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  3. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jag_Warrior View Post
    If her name was Sam Wolff and she was a male, would anyone be surprised that she/he isn't racing in Formula One?

    I don't say this to be offensive, but Susie was relying on factors apart from her talent and racing accomplishments (or lack thereof) to get her an F1 seat - namely, her gender and her husband's connections. What male, 30-something racer, who'd never won a road course race in his life (much less a championship), would even dare to think that he'd EVER be on the F1 grid? And I'm sorry, but Carmen Jorda is an even bigger joke in that respect than Susie. Simona de Silvestro was/is someone who I think, with work, could make it onto the F1 grid. She's won in lower formulas (unlike Susie, Carmen or even Danica - a lonely win on an oval means little in F1) and from what's been written, she can relate to racing engineers and gives good feedback. Plus, she's not that old, she's tough (didn't even shake after being caught on fire) and she doesn't whine or act like she deserves special treatment (unlike Danica).

    No one prevented Susie or Carmen from racing, instead of just hanging around the paddock on F1 weekends. Susie didn't even bother to try to get her Super License. I've heard that she's a nice person. But that and a dollar will buy you a cup of coffee these days. If you're a C or D student, you're not going to get into Harvard or Cambridge. And that's about where Susie's racing resume puts her. Too bad that Krooked Kaltenborn screwed over Simona, since she seemed to have the talent and ability to at least be respectable on the F1 grid.

    IMO, Susie's failure to make it into F1 has nothing to do with women in F1. Her placement at Williams was far above where she should have been on pure merit. Shame on her for thinking that her gender and family connections should afford her special favors.
    You say the obvious and what is easiest to say about this situation but carefully avoid the question. My point is, why bring her in if she wasn't going to be developed for racing. Is Carmen just another doll in a race suit for media attraction as well? Silvestro did not even get her feet into the cab of the Sauber.

    I understand full well the competition these lady racers are up against. From GP2 champions to experienced F1 drivers, all waiting in the wings for an opportunity to driver a F1 car. My main point is that if they are wearing a race suit, then they should occasionally grace the race track so that we may see if they have what it takes.

  4. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nitrodaze View Post
    If Montoya can transition to F1 from the indycar/Nascar series and make his mark in F1, the race winning female Nascar or Indycar driver would definitely be able to pull her weight in F1.
    Not to pick knits with you, but Montoya climbed the traditional ladder into the 2nd top level of motorsports in Europe (wasn't he champ that year?) BEFORE he was farmed out to CART for a couple of seasons of experience. He went back to Europe for F1 before he did NASCAR and then back to IndyCar.
    "Old roats am jake mit goats."
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  5. #14
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    There are any number of talented female racers at the lower levels of motorsport. The problem is that the vast majority don't have either 1) the money or 2) the drive (perseverance) to stick it out long enough to advance to F1.

    The idea that there should be separate venues for female drivers is ridiculous. Motorsport is the one sport where women can compete on an equal playing field with men. Especially with all the driver aids today. Because it's not about size or pure strength, it's about physical conditioning, reflexes, concentration and mental toughness in order to be competitive.
    "Old roats am jake mit goats."
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  7. #15
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    Michelle Mouton in rallying proved that women can compete in top level motorsport succesfully. But though she was a great rolw model for women, there has never been another since. So its not about lack of role models, or some glass sealing. If a woman is good enough, she will make it. There just has not been any. Most of it is down to so few girls starting motorsport in the first place

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  9. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by COD View Post
    Michelle Mouton in rallying proved that women can compete in top level motorsport succesfully. But though she was a great rolw model for women, there has never been another since. So its not about lack of role models, or some glass sealing. If a woman is good enough, she will make it. There just has not been any. Most of it is down to so few girls starting motorsport in the first place
    It is great that you brought up the brilliant Michelle Mouton. Actually, Michelle Mouton is an example of a female driver that got the right level of support, encouragement and nurturing that is required for a female driver to succeed. One doesn't get to be good without these things. Hence if there is a lack of women presence in any series, that alone is evidence that they are not getting the support, encouragement and nurturing they require to get good enough.

    Incidentally, Michelle Mouton got the sort of support that Lewis Hamilton got, incidentally Max Verstapenn is getting at the moment. And there is a parallel between the plight of women and Black drivers in European series. There are not many Black racers in top level racing in europe. Some series do not have any black drivers at all. I am sure you would like to say they are not good enough hence why they have not got a drive. But that is another matter, lets not cloud the female driver point of this thread.

    Racing has to reach some level of diversity which allows talent of any orientation [gender etc] to be able to progress to the top level of motor sport. The talent would shine through given the right nurturing and encouragement.
    Last edited by Nitrodaze; 7th November 2015 at 17:01.

  10. #17
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    The problem with Susie Wolff is that she always comes across with a sense of entitlement. Indeed even in her "retirement" press announcement she states it is because F1 drive "isn't going to happen". The wording of it is quite accusatory and as if she has been hard done by.

    If she really wanted to get an F1 drive, then she should have pushed for a drive in GP3 / GP2 and been competitive in that series.

    She never deserved an F1 drive realistically based on her past results. I feel her cause has done more harm than good to women drivers in F1.

    I would love to see a woman in F1 but I want to see one who has worked their way up the ladder by winning titles and being competitive, not some of form of tokenism or media story.
    Niente è vero, tutto è permesso

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  12. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bezza View Post
    I would love to see a woman in F1 but I want to see one who has worked their way up the ladder by winning titles and being competitive, not some of form of tokenism or media story.
    I totally agree that F1 seats should be earned by deserving and very capable female drivers. I certainly thought Silvertro was a genuinely good candidate for an F1 seat. With an Indycar podium under her belt, she has the credentials to do well in F1. I think, give her a good car, she probably could drive in the top ten and possibly earn a podium.

    Desire Wilson won 3 races in 1980 and 4 podiums in 1988. She is currently the most successfull F1 female driver to date.
    Last edited by Nitrodaze; 11th November 2015 at 01:00.

  13. #19
    Senior Member Jag_Warrior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nitrodaze View Post
    You say the obvious and what is easiest to say about this situation but carefully avoid the question. My point is, why bring her in if she wasn't going to be developed for racing. Is Carmen just another doll in a race suit for media attraction as well? Silvestro did not even get her feet into the cab of the Sauber.

    I understand full well the competition these lady racers are up against. From GP2 champions to experienced F1 drivers, all waiting in the wings for an opportunity to driver a F1 car. My main point is that if they are wearing a race suit, then they should occasionally grace the race track so that we may see if they have what it takes.
    If I had enough money, Lotus would let my old a$$ hang around the garage in a race suit. She's cute, has some backing and she likes wearing her short-shorts in the Lotus garage. If that's all she wants, that's cool. IMO, she should have spent her time becoming a better racer, instead of being a paddock princess. But she knows (deep down) that she's not capable of racing or even testing that car. Carmen has never accomplished anything of merit in racing. Not a single thing. Nada. She's even more unaccomplished than Susie. We can assume that Susie's hubby still being a William's shareholder and the fact that Williams is running Mercedes engines has everything to do with her placement. Why else would she be there? And they did let her test a couple of times. IMO, she should be happy with that. As has been said, this sense of entitlement that Susie and Carmen have is annoying.

    Simona has actually won professional road course races and was very close to winning the title in Atlantics. She's legit. Susie and Carmen are not. Simona, I feel bad for. It's just unfortunate that some other team, besides Sly Sauber, didn't bring her in.
    "Every generation's memory is exactly as long as its own experience." --John Kenneth Galbraith

  14. #20
    Senior Member Jag_Warrior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nitrodaze View Post
    I don't think the normal feeder series for F1 would produce female racers at the moment. They would have to come from other similar level series such as Indycar and Nascar where they would have gained some experience and have become race hardened. If Montoya can transition to F1 from the indycar/Nascar series and make his mark in F1, the race winning female Nascar or Indycar driver would definitely be able to pull her weight in F1.

    It is interesting that you identify that the problem runs deep into the grassroots of european motor racing. These layers of barriers are only going to ensure that european female racers like Carmen Jorda have to make their way into F1 via the Nascar/Indycar series. Even so, it is still very hard for them.
    Trying to make it into F1 via NASCAR or the IRL would be a complete waste of time, IMO. NASCAR is an (almost) all oval stock car series. So it really has no connection to Formula One. Other than some car swap promos/publicity stunts over the past decade or so, no NASCAR drivers have taken modern F1 cars for a run. Truly exceptional racers, like Jeff Gordon and Kyle Busch, have had their names mentioned in F1 circles. But NASCAR, in general, has not and will not be a path to Formula One. The old CART series had several drivers transition to F1, with varying degrees of success. But those cars were pretty much on par with F1 cars in regard to horsepower/weight. The (IRL) Indycar that we have now, while more developed than previous iterations of the series, still has a horsepower/weight ratio just above GP2. And to the best of my knowledge (fading memory issues here), no IRL driver has ever gotten a legit test. I believe Marco Andretti was given a "test" by Honda several years ago as a "thanks" to his dad's team. But he wasn't in line for a drive - neither was Danica. So that series isn't a gateway to F1 either. The old ChampCar series, sort of like CART's weak little brother, produced a dominant champion in Sebastien Bourdais. There should be no argument that the dude could race a car. But having a hotshoe youngster as his teammate, combined with having to deal with the intricacies of F1, did not serve him well.

    I say all of this to point out that while a female can/could get into IRL Indycar with a check (Pippa Mann, Milka Duno, et al), by being popular and having sponsorship (Danica Patrick) or by having stick-to-it-tiveness and/or talent (Simona di Silvestro, Kathrine Legge and Sarah Fisher), most of us (I believe you included) wants Formula One to be the pinnacle of motorsports. Personally, I would like to see more racers making it on talent and fewer making it based on bringing sponsorship or any sort of politics (political correctness included). If a female dominates in the IRL, that might get her a test in F1. I don't know. But I would say that winning a handful of races in GP2 and being in the top three in the standings would get the attention of an F1 team even more. There is simply no substitute for having a leg up by knowing many of the tracks and understanding the engineering culture in F1.

    My idea... while Susie is tool old and doesn't have the talent to race in Formula One, she has been around the game long enough to be helpful to someone who is younger and does have the raw talent to some day race in Formula One. She has written for Huffington Post. And though Arianna Huffington no longer owns that site outright, she's still connected to it... and she has a boatload of money. The two of them could combine forces and foster a girl who actually could climb the ladder to F1. They could. The question is, do they want to do something real or just talk the talk, while refusing to walk the walk? Time will tell.
    "Every generation's memory is exactly as long as its own experience." --John Kenneth Galbraith

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