Is Redbull the architect of its engine problems?

[veeten]

Then again, if Honda is forced to fulfill the contract with FIA/FOM , Red Bull could make it even harder by providing a better chassis for their powertrain.

This could cause some severe consternation for Ron, as they wouldn't have Honda to blame for their predicament, and reveal what a total DOG the chassis is.

Reasons as to why, and food for thought...

[Duncan]

Mugen on the other hand... Honda could supply Mugen who could then supply Red Bull.

If that's possible within the terms of the contract, McLaren need a new lawyer...

It will be interesting to see what happens here, but it would be pretty shocking if RB were able to get the same spec Honda engine as McLaren. If it's 2015 spec, on the other hand, that might not be so bad for everybody not called Red Bull.

[Somebody]

A certain site with a URL similar to this one but without the "forums" in it is claiming that Renault are prepared to supply engines to Red Bull, provided they don't get to use the Renault name.

Looking at the Renault-Nissan Alliance Wikipedia page for the brands they control... what price Red Bull-Lada next year?

[Nitrodaze]

So Horner goes to Autosport magazine and says Honda is keen to supply them with engine but Ron Dennis is blocking the way. A perfect demonstration of tact and an excellent way of generating good will it would seem. not! I really am not sure what that strategy is, tell the world and somehow put pressure on bad Ron, then Honda would run along and hand them an engine.

I am keen to see how their new tactics would pan out. If anything, it seem like stirring up a rift between Honda and Mclaren. Parhaps, Redbull's engine problem is about to become a Mclaren problem. Going by the Autosport article, it is hard to see how Mclaren and Redbull could work cooperatively to get the most of the Honda package. This could easily tear Honda into two irreconcilable directions. This sort of negative publicity is not the sort of basis upon which cooperation is borne. RBR do not seem to have learnt a lessen from its handling of the Renault affair in the media.

[Rollo]

Then they would need to buy Cosworth... starting F1 engine factory from scratch? Well, I don't think so. Even for someone like Red Bull.

McLaren illustrates precisely why teams like Red Bull and McLaren should develop their own engines from scratch.


McLaren especially should get the McLaren Technology Group to do something for them. When Honda left in '92, McLaren had to scratch around with Ford and then an meh season with Peugeot before they got a gig with M-B. Once M-B left them, they've been dumped in it.
The Artist formerly known as Stewart GP has been meddled with by Ford, dumped by Ford, rabbled around with Ferrari before tying themselves up with Renault.

Fabricating your own engines, would solve all sorts of problems (and create others) for these teams. Since Formula One tech is different from road cars and is bespoke, then that might make real sense - if the staff can do it.

[Nitrodaze]

McLaren illustrates precisely why teams like Red Bull and McLaren should develop their own engines from scratch.


McLaren especially should get the McLaren Technology Group to do something for them. When Honda left in '92, McLaren had to scratch around with Ford and then an meh season with Peugeot before they got a gig with M-B. Once M-B left them, they've been dumped in it.
The Artist formerly known as Stewart GP has been meddled with by Ford, dumped by Ford, rabbled around with Ferrari before tying themselves up with Renault.

Fabricating your own engines, would solve all sorts of problems (and create others) for these teams. Since Formula One tech is different from road cars and is bespoke, then that might make real sense - if the staff can do it.

The cost of R&D of developing a new engine is cost prohibitive. Buying into an existing engine manufacturer is a better option. Even so, there is the added cost of R & D to get the bought engine to Mercedes level of performance. After all that expense, Redbull would have to languish at the back of the grid for a number of seasons in an experiment that may or may not work out.

It is considerably cheaper to buy an engine from a manufacturer than to build your own in this era of F1. Manufactures typically have other commercial benefit from the R&D that goes into developing their F1 engines. If it was easy to get level with the Merc engine, Ferrari would have done it by now. Even the cheap engine idea may not prove successful due to this reason. It may be a 2.2 litre engine, but it would struggle to be as competitve as the hybrid engines which is already as fast as the bigger bore engines of ten years ago on some tracks. Like Mexico, Hamilton was doing 225 mph compared to Berger's fastest speed of 215mph on the straight of the Autodromo Hernandez Rodriquez.

The cheaper engine would be bulkier, thus heavier. It would require more fuel which would increase the weight of the car further. It may have to pit more often or pit longer than the hybrid that would only pit for tyres. They would also increase logistic cost for thr added weight of fuel, refueling rig, fire extinguishers etc that has to be added to the the current freight cost. The fat cheap teams with the cheap engine would not have a chance against the slim, lighter hybrid teams. We would more or less have a 2 tier race which is more divided than we have now.

[Nitrodaze]

Then again, if Honda is forced to fulfill the contract with FIA/FOM , Red Bull could make it even harder by providing a better chassis for their powertrain.

This could cause some severe consternation for Ron, as they wouldn't have Honda to blame for their predicament, and reveal what a total DOG the chassis is.

Reasons as to why, and food for thought...

There is no guarantee that Redbull chassis would be better than the Mclaren chassis. Especially when Newey is not responsible for the aero package anymore. If anything, Redbull may need to make adjustments to fit the Honda engine into their chassis which may push the advantage to Mclaren that has already built a chassis from scratch specifically for the Honda engine.

I can see why Mclaren would push back on Redbull having the Honda engine. Mclaren has put in a year of working with Honda to get that engine where it is so far, a year of embarrassment and test of character and Redbull simply wants to swooping in and take benefit of the work done by Mclaren. The question really is, if they think they could work with Honda to further develop the Honda engine, why are they not doing the same with Renault. Why would working with Honda and their slower engine be any different to working with Renault. The grass is always greener on the other side of the fence l suppose.

[rjbetty]

I'm not one for schadenfreude much, but I find it amazing that RBR are now so desperate they are reduced to clambering around trying to get their hands on a Honda PU.

[jens]

Well, I feel sorry for all the people in the factory, who have the ability to design a very good chassis. And I feel sorry for the talented young drivers, who can give headaches to the established elite.

In such desperate lack of competition in F1 we need any competitive team we can. But it looks like competition is going to get even worse than it has been. Big manufacturers have developed a monopoly in terms of both performance and political power.

However, the power struggle between McLaren and Red Bull will be fascinating to watch. You can be sure Red Bull won't just let it stay so that McLaren remains Honda's A priority team!

[Big Ben]

"The situation is clear, we won't get any of the existing powertrains because all teams fear that we would be faster than their own works outfits.As we know you can't buy courage or sporting spirit."-Mateshits (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/121633)

Now there's going to be a bidding war to give them engines because he called them wusses .
They haven't really learnt anything from what's happening to them.