Is Redbull the architect of its engine problems?

[Rollo]

My thoughts exactly. Why would anybody want to supply RBR with engines? Manufacturers are in the sport for brand promotion for the most part, and Christian Horner is the opposite of the kind of brand spokesperson you want...

When it works though, that promotion is milked for all it's worth:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=deNqB4nNwPw
Renault were taking out double page spreads in the broadsheets out here in the colonies, with Red Bull tie-ins.

Red Bull certainly have not rolled themselves in sweetness but Renault aren't exactly an innocent fluffy bunny caught in the headlights either.

[jens]

We should not mix up different things.

Red Bull is not the architect of Renault's engine problems. Didn't Red Bull once send its software specialists to Viry (Renault engine dept) to help to solve some issues, because they could not? Red Bull can't be responsible for the lack of Renault's effort. Also RBR is not responsible for new engine rules, which has created a big gulf between teams.

I wrote in another thread that I think the pragmatic Mateschitz deep down knows Red Bull is doomed in the new regs era. That's why they are desperately looking around... They are not and can't be Merc/Ferrari works teams and Renault isn't good enough...

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However, where does Red Bull's part or should I say responsibility come in. It comes in dealing with their situation or fate. In a situation, where they are sort of 'doomed' to be outsiders in current formula, they lack vision and level-headidness to deal with the situation. Continue in midfield or pull out altogether? To be honest, I think they should have perhaps already taken a firm decision on how to approach the new era. Because messing around with manufacturers and burning bridges doesn't have any point or purpose. So a decision should have been taken - "okay, the situation with Renault is bad, but we have no other option and go through it." Or "okay, we can be a customer of Merc/Ferrari, and not win, but that's the best we can do." Or "we hope Honda comes good one day."

What could Mateschitz also have done? Perhaps he could have tried to persuade Renault's boss Carlos Ghosn to invest more into F1. I am unsure, which 'incentives' Mateschitz could have used. Because Ghosn is unlikely to be interested in investing a lot into F1 "just because". Perhaps Mateschitz could have proposed a wide-range co-operation between Red Bull and Renault, which includes also car industry in general, so that investment into F1 comes into play? Of course I don't know what they have discussed behind the closed doors, just guessing out loud now.

[jens]

Actually if anyone is bothered to read, wanted to continue...

Of course, there is one more possible firm decision for RBR - "we don't like the new era F1, and we pull out."

Looking at wider context... When we had the V8 engines, I do remember Mercedes threatening to pull out, if they do not bring in new hybrid engines. In the end Mercedes got what they want. What is the current problematic situation of F1? With the help of politicking manufacturers have achieved a heavily dominant position in F1.

What is Red Bull trying to counter? They are also threatening to pull out - they do not like the domination of manufacturers, which was established with latest rule changes. And it is not the matter of whether you like "fizzy drinks" or whether they are a "real racing company". It is about the effort you put in. Try telling all those hundreds of people working lengthy hours for Red Bull and Toro Rosso at various jobs, that they are not a "real team".

The thing with Red Bull is that their PR is not very refined and they play with very open cards. And that's why people easily misunderstand them, or even hate or dislike. Now nobody wants to remember, how manufacturers threatened to pull out if they do not get the "advantage" of new engine regs, but behind the closed doors we had such a politicking as well.

Red Bull/Mateschitz wants to 'protect' the position of non-manufacturer big F1 contributors. People argue in this thread that it is completely right that Merc/Ferrari can do what they want (we don't give them engines if we don't like, whatever), and teams like Red Bull can't do anything and have no chance to be competitive. This is what politicking for the new regulations has done - manufacturers have all the power. I'd say it is out of balance! As company directors people like Mateschitz and Horner must fight for the rights of their team and all the people in there as well.

Also if Red Bull pulls out, and I almost hope they'd do it - it would force F1 for a re-think, how to value other teams as well in addition to just catering for Mercedes/Ferrari. Because behind them it is a very shaky ground right now.

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One more thought. I don't know, what has been discussed behind the doors. But probably Mateschitz understood Ghosn is not prepared to invest a lot into F1, and Red Bull put all their eggs on potential VW basket, believing they would invest heavily into F1 and would become a long-term partner. But with VW getting wiped out, it has destroyed the last bastion of Red Bull's F1 strategy, and they do not know, what to do or which direction to go. Probably they will take some kind of a firm decision soon, but it will be a heavy compromise on their ideals.

[Nitrodaze]

After four consecutive world championships, it is not unexpected for suppliers to be burnt out as did Renault. Four consecutive world champions do not happen by luck and it takes a monstrously huge amount of investment, research and development. It happened to Ferrari at the end of the Schumacher era and was expected to happen to Renault from 2013 onwards. Renault were quite open about it too.
I suppose Redbull probably hoped the dominance of the Renault engine can be carried forward to the hybrid era with careful upgrade to the winning formular.

We can blame the regulations, but it is still up to Redbull to maneuver correctly to ensure they remain at the top of the game. What we are seeing so far has looked like a long headlight moment. I hope they find a way to stay in the sport as Redbull has become a very important part of F1's recent history. You can't win all the time, maybe it is time to regroup for the next main regulation change at 2017.

[zako85]

I still chuckle when I hear about the "dominance" of Renault engine in the 2010-2013 seasons. Vettel won four titles in that time, yet back then I actually never heard of anyone talking of the dominance of the Renault engine. The only non-Red Bull team that did sorta well with a Renault engine was Lotus in 2012-2013. The 2012 Williams seemed like a nice car too, but its chances were ruined by mediocre drivers. Most of what Red Bull achieved was thanks to their aero dynamics brilliance. Renault may have delivered them some clever engine mapping or telemetry, but all that would have been useless without the RBR chassis.

[Nitrodaze]

I still chuckle when I hear about the "dominance" of Renault engine in the 2010-2013 seasons. Vettel won four titles in that time, yet back then I actually never heard of anyone talking of the dominance of the Renault engine. The only non-Red Bull team that did sorta well with a Renault engine was Lotus in 2012-2013. The 2012 Williams seemed like a nice car too, but its chances were ruined by mediocre drivers. Most of what Red Bull achieved was thanks to their aero dynamics brilliance. Renault may have delivered them some clever engine mapping or telemetry, but all that would have been useless without the RBR chassis.

I suppose, Redbull will wipe the floor with Mercedes when they bolt on their 2015 Ferrari engine. :-)

[Duncan]

When it works though, that promotion is milked for all it's worth:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=deNqB4nNwPw
Renault were taking out double page spreads in the broadsheets out here in the colonies, with Red Bull tie-ins.

Well, exactly. That's why Renault (and every other engine manufacturer) is there; they want to enhance their brand, and stuff like this is the sort of output they're looking for. The last thing they want is somebody like Christian Horner trash talking their brand at every opportunity. This makes it a very tough sell for every manufacturer to provide RBR with engines.

[jens]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/121468

According to latest rumour Red Bull could become Honda's B team, because there may not be any other option. I know I am sort of sympathetic about Red Bull, but I can't help but laugh. It would also throw all performance predictions we have had so far out of the window, and push RBR further down the field.

However, McLaren should (rightfully) fear if this were to happen. Unlike with Mercedes or Ferrari, Honda is not forever tied with their main team to deny RBR. And if Red Bull can prove they can make a better chassis than McLaren, it would be a justified decision for them to switch allegiances.

[Nitrodaze]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/121468

According to latest rumour Red Bull could become Honda's B team, because there may not be any other option. I know I am sort of sympathetic about Red Bull, but I can't help but laugh. It would also throw all performance predictions we have had so far out of the window, and push RBR further down the field.

However, McLaren should (rightfully) fear if this were to happen. Unlike with Mercedes or Ferrari, Honda is not forever tied with their main team to deny RBR. And if Red Bull can prove they can make a better chassis than McLaren, it would be a justified decision for them to switch allegiances.

The Honda combustion engine is already a few BHP up on the Renault but with the poor hybrid part of the Honda engine they also a few BHP down on the Renault. Honda's 2016 engine is very likely going to make big strides in the Hybrid department, if coupled with some additional inprovement in horse power in the combustion engine as well, then Honda is an interesting proposition for Redbull.

Should Mclaren be worried, l don't think they should for a short term arrangement. Redbull taking the Honda engine is good for both Honda and Mclaren as Honda may get a concession that would allow them more latitude to make far reaching changes to the engine. The real question though is, is Honda setup for manufacturing engines for two customers? Taking on Redbull at this late stage may destabilize their preparation for 2016 and put their Mclaren project at risk.
Then there is the question of investment commitment from RBR and Honda for the additional commitment. If the arrangement puts additional funding pressure on Honda, chances are this is not going to happen, unless of course Mclaren-Honda off load Alonso for a cheaper driver like Magnussen. And that is not going to be cheap.

Looking at how RBR handled their relationship with Renault, you have to ask; is a RBR-Honda relationship going to work, taking into account the Japanese cultural sensitivity to pride and honor. RBR would need to have someone at the helm with experience of japanese working relationship. I have a strong feeling the current personels are going to make a hash of it in a very short time.

While Honda taking on RBR is purely for strategic reasons, l am sure they would not hesitate to dump RBR mid season if RBR behave in anyway insulting or injurious to the Honda brand. There isn't that bonding developed from past relationship as Mclaren has with Honda. Even so, the Mclaren-Honda relationship was stretched to testing points on occasion. I am sure most would remember the Alonso rant about GP2 engine at Suzuka. While that was driver misbehavior, l am sure at team level, such public outburst would have deteriorated into a swift separation.

While it would be great for Honda, Mclaren and Redbull for such a deal to take place, it could be risky for Mclaren if RBR has difficulty working to Honda's particular work ethics and culture, That may put Mclaren's programme at risk due to the distraction of Honda and stress generated. Hence some may say it is risky for Mclaren, but they may also benefit from it in the long run.

Since it is unlikely the Honda engine is suddenly going to win the f1 championship in 2016, Mclaren has nothing to lose sharing Honda with RBR for at most one season.

The idea of Honda dumping Mclaren for Redbull is interesting. Would a RBR-Honda combination be more likely to win a CWC in a shorter period than with Mclaren. It comes down to chassis excelence and supremacy. With Adrian Newey not being full time in charge of RBR aerodynamic, it is not so clear cut that RBR would develop better chassis than Mclaren. This is evident at the early part of the season when the Toro Rosso had a better chassis and performed better than the senior team. Hence it may be foolhardy for Honda to jump ship to a Neweyless RBR.

[CNR]

There was very little engine development between 2010 and 2013. Much of V8 engine development was frozen, and all manufacturer's V8 engines were more similar in terms of power output. So most of tech competition was actually in the realm of chassis design and aero, and RedBull was superb at that game. Renault got lucky with RBR, because with very little R&D spent on the engines of that generation, they got so many titles.

Anyways.. the way I see it, Red Bull is drama queen of the sport right now. I don't know what RBR was counting on when they were burning bridges with Renault, that Ferrari or Mercedes will supply them a works engine? Please.

it was about the time they where linked to vw
http://www.digitaltrends.com/cars/di...with-red-bull/
"The company was reportedly negotiating a deal to supply engines to former champion Red Bull Racing, but that deal has likely been derailed by the emissions scandal,

Read more: http://www.digitaltrends.com/cars/di...#ixzz3pYBB7Bsb
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