Is Redbull the architect of its engine problems?

[Nitrodaze]

Could Redbull have managed their problems with Renault better? As it stands at the moment they have burned bridges with Renault without a backup plan or alternative solution. They had not secured an alternative supplier for 2016 before they let their relationship with Renault deteriorate to the point of very possibly no return. This is the puzzling aspect of the Redbull situation.

The question l keep having everytime l think about the Redbull situation is, what really was their plan to secure a new supplier for 2016? From the looks of it, there did not seem to be any, particularly since they seem to have approached other suppliers in what appears to be too late into Mercedes and Ferrari's programme for 2016 season. Mercedes will not supply them with any of their engines and Ferrari has been more generous than Mercedes to offer them their 2015 engine. Which do not meet Redbull's requirement of parity engine. So where does that leave Redbull?

The other question is, will the Ferrari 2015 engine be better than the Renault 2016 engine? This is particularly relevant when you think that the FIA may relax their regulation to give Renault and Honda a chance to catch up to Mercedes and Ferrari. Threatening to quit F1 has not got them a Mercedes engine nor a 2016 Ferrari engine. The Volkswagen entry to F1 is looking somewhat in doubt judging by their current emissions problems. Hence 2017 may well be another problem year for Redbull.

Adrian Newey was quoted at saying Redbull is being pushed out of F1 because their competitors fear Redbull. But is that really the case? Why should Mercedes or Ferrari hand away competitive advantages to its competitor Redbull? Why do Redbull think all it has to do is demand an engine and Mercedes or Ferrari will just comply and handover a 2016 spec engine? Or threaten to leave the sport and Bernie would pressure Mercedes or Ferrari to supply a 2016 spec engine to Redbull.

Could one say that Redbull may leave the sport because they have been unable to cut deals successfully due to their lack of a soft touch approach to securing an engine. From the faraway couch of the spectator, the perspective seem that Redbull have forgotten how to do deals because they have been too long at the top of the game. They may have forgotten that getting a works engine supply is not a privilege but a partnership earned. They have forgotten that they are a customer team like every other who has won four or more constructor world championships. Like Mclaren or Williams.

While it is very obvious that Renault has failed to deliver a competitive engine over the last two years, one would have expected a little more restraint and control in how they go about severing the partnership. With some respect for the manufacturer that effectively secured them four consecutive double world championships. It would have been more appealing if the severance of the relationship was on amicable terms which would accorded Renault appreciation for those titles won and would have left the door open for a future partnership. Maybe Redbull is pushing Redbull out of the series. What do you think?

You know who your friends really are when the going is tough.

[Rollo]

Could Redbull have managed their problems with Renault better? As it stands at the moment they have burn bridges with Renault without a backup plan or alternative solution. They had not secured an alternative supplier for 2016 before they let their relationship with Renault to deteriorate to the point of very possibly no return. This is the puzzling aspect of the Redbull situation.

Mercedes don't want to supply Red Bull with an A-spec engine because they see Red Bull as a threat to their own title chances.
Ferrari don't want to supply Red Bull with an A-spec engine because they see Red Bull as a threat to their own title chances.
Renault don't really want to supply Red Bull with an A-spec engine because they see Red Bull as a threat to their own title chances if they happen to buy the Maldonado black team.

Red Bull have tasted victory and as in days of yore, as with Williams being dumped by Honda in 1988, Williams being dumped by Honda in 1988, or McLaren dumped by Honda in 1993, or even Ross Brawn's outfit being dumped (thankfully) by Honda in 2009.
Red Bull are just particularly vocal about Renault's lack of interest.

Could they have managed this better? If I was the Grand Poohbah of Red Bull, I would have gone to Opel or even Fiat to secure engines. Maybe Red Bull is pushing Red Bull out of the series - who knows? F1 ain't cheap and not to have that expense certainly would improve profitability.

[anfield5]

I agree with what Rollo has put forward, and may I add. Red Bull is a PR nightmare for engine suppliers with their constant negativity aimed at the engine supplier. They have been really vitriolic with Renault, forgetting that they won 8 titles in 4 years because Renault was so strong. No multi national company wants to have a nightmare like Red Bull constantly criticising them and their products, it is bad for business as members of the general public will take what they say as the gospel, and sales will suffer.

So as well as the fear thing i.e RBR beating the factory team, there is the problem of negative publicity as well

[zako85]

I agree with what Rollo has put forward, and may I add. Red Bull is a PR nightmare for engine suppliers with their constant negativity aimed at the engine supplier. They have been really vitriolic with Renault, forgetting that they won 8 titles in 4 years because Renault was so strong.

There was very little engine development between 2010 and 2013. Much of V8 engine development was frozen, and all manufacturer's V8 engines were more similar in terms of power output. So most of tech competition was actually in the realm of chassis design and aero, and RedBull was superb at that game. Renault got lucky with RBR, because with very little R&D spent on the engines of that generation, they got so many titles.

Anyways.. the way I see it, Red Bull is drama queen of the sport right now. I don't know what RBR was counting on when they were burning bridges with Renault, that Ferrari or Mercedes will supply them a works engine? Please.

[Rollo]

Anyways.. the way I see it, Red Bull is drama queen of the sport right now. I don't know what RBR was counting on when they were burning bridges with Renault, that Ferrari or Mercedes will supply them a works engine? Please.

Renault have form with this though. Renault screwed around royally with both Frank Williams and the Benetton Family to such a degree that Williams ended up doing a deal with BMW and the Benetton Family left the sport altogether.
This is the reason why we had Mechacrome, Playlife and Supertec in F1 for a while.

I think that Red Bull have a great deal to complain about and given Renault's track record, they should. Renault are as corporately as bad as Ford.

[The Black Knight]

There was very little engine development between 2010 and 2013. Much of V8 engine development was frozen, and all manufacturer's V8 engines were more similar in terms of power output. So most of tech competition was actually in the realm of chassis design and aero, and RedBull was superb at that game. Renault got lucky with RBR, because with very little R&D spent on the engines of that generation, they got so many titles.

Anyways.. the way I see it, Red Bull is drama queen of the sport right now. I don't know what RBR was counting on when they were burning bridges with Renault, that Ferrari or Mercedes will supply them a works engine? Please.

They didn't get lucky at all. From 2012 to 2013 the Renault Engine wasn't really down on power. The reason for this is because Renault kept bringing software updates for their Engine which in turn also contributed to closing the gap to the front runners. I was as surprised as any to see them up in the speed traps in 2012 and 2013, not all the time, but they were quite frequently so they contributed quite a lot to those world titles as RBR and, to be frank, got very little of the credit for it.

I'm surprised to see people being so down on Renault in this thread. The main issue with the RBR/Renault relationship is that they didn't integrate each others teams enough to allow for success. I personally don't see why either Ferrari or Mercedes should supply RBR with their latest spec engine.

RBR have oen of the biggest budgets, if not the biggest budget, on the grid. Mercedes and Ferrari pump a considerable amount of their budget into Engine development. Why should they then provide RBR with an Engine for €12m so RBR can then pump that extra volume of their budget into chassis development and beating them? It doesn't make sense and I can't see how RBR could have ever thought that either team would supply them with latest specification engines.

They have further shot themselves in the foot by publicly lambasting engine supplier. So if Mercedes or Ferrari produce an elephant or have reliability problems, are RBR then going to do as they have done with Renault, publicly humiliate them and then try to move to the then best engine on the grid?

The other issue is I think RBR overvalued their importance to F1. Sure they have contributed a lot to the sport but no team is bigger than the sport. Every team on the grid Mercedes, Ferrari, McLaren, Williams etc has come across hard times. That is part of being in sport, not just F1, and they can't possibly expect to be involved with F1 without going through a tough period, it just comes with the territory.

The simple fact is they have 100% completely brought this upon themselves through their own arrogance and petulance. RBR could have worked hard with Renault to get back to the front within the next year or two but instead they threw the toys out of the pram to get the easy way out. Well, there's no room for people that want the easy way out in F1. They deserve nothing other than to be given the finger to send them on their way.

[CNR]

There was very little engine development between 2010 and 2013. Much of V8 engine development was frozen, and all manufacturer's V8 engines were more similar in terms of power output. So most of tech competition was actually in the realm of chassis design and aero, and RedBull was superb at that game. Renault got lucky with RBR, because with very little R&D spent on the engines of that generation, they got so many titles.

Anyways.. the way I see it, Red Bull is drama queen of the sport right now. I don't know what RBR was counting on when they were burning bridges with Renault, that Ferrari or Mercedes will supply them a works engine? Please.

it was about the time they where linked to vw
http://www.digitaltrends.com/cars/di...with-red-bull/
"The company was reportedly negotiating a deal to supply engines to former champion Red Bull Racing, but that deal has likely been derailed by the emissions scandal,

Read more: http://www.digitaltrends.com/cars/di...#ixzz3pYBB7Bsb
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"

[Mia 01]

Nothing to complain about, Four WDC and WCC. They will get Honda lump now or be forced to pray for mercy on their knees on the Renualt board.

[AndyL]

I blame Red Bull almost 100%.

Renault made a business decision to spend less money on their F1 engine programme than Mercedes. Red Bull don't like that, but it wasn't Red Bull's money. It was Renault's decision to make.

Red Bull's decisions, on the other hand, just look petulant and stupid. Someone elsewhere described their situation thus: they've jumped out of a plane and are now negotiating to buy a parachute on the way down. Unsurprisingly, the negotiations are not going in their favour.

Their criticism of Renault is nothing new. Even in the V8 era when they were winning, Horner regularly made negative comments about the engines. If you were an engine manufacturer, how keen would you be to supply a team that takes all the credit when they win and blames you when they lose?

[Duncan]

I blame Red Bull almost 100%.

Renault made a business decision to spend less money on their F1 engine programme than Mercedes. Red Bull don't like that, but it wasn't Red Bull's money. It was Renault's decision to make.

Red Bull's decisions, on the other hand, just look petulant and stupid. Someone elsewhere described their situation thus: they've jumped out of a plane and are now negotiating to buy a parachute on the way down. Unsurprisingly, the negotiations are not going in their favour.

Their criticism of Renault is nothing new. Even in the V8 era when they were winning, Horner regularly made negative comments about the engines. If you were an engine manufacturer, how keen would you be to supply a team that takes all the credit when they win and blames you when they lose?

My thoughts exactly. Why would anybody want to supply RBR with engines? Manufacturers are in the sport for brand promotion for the most part, and Christian Horner is the opposite of the kind of brand spokesperson you want...