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  1. #11
    Senior Member Duncan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rollo View Post
    It would have been far safer for Schumacher to have been in a stress rated cockpit than have his head sheared off by a Force India. Incidents like we saw with Massa being hit by debris or Senna being pierced probably wouldn't have happened either.
    ...but he didn't get his head sheared off, because other structures around the cockpit deflected the other car, which is also a viable solution that so far has been very effective. We've seen people routinely walk away from some horrifying-looking rollovers because of this.

    Besides which, if a quick escape is needed, pyrotechnic fasteners (explosive bolts) have been in use in aircraft cockpits since at least before the time of the English Electric Canberra bomber which flew in 1949.
    How would that work if the car is upside down?

  2. #12
    Senior Member Rollo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duncan View Post
    How would that work if the car is upside down?
    Push a button - explode the bolts - push the canopy to the side. Done.

    More likely though, if the car is upside down, ignore it.
    Let the marshalls sort the problem out before retrieving the driver. The main reason that a driver needs to escape an upside down is the possibility of fire; if the safety cell is sealed, that's no longer an issue. A driver does not need to get out in a hurry if they're protected in a sealed cell.
    The Old Republic was a stupidly run organisation which deserved to be taken over. All Hail Palpatine!

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rollo View Post
    Push a button - explode the bolts - push the canopy to the side. Done.

    More likely though, if the car is upside down, ignore it.
    Let the marshalls sort the problem out before retrieving the driver. The main reason that a driver needs to escape an upside down is the possibility of fire; if the safety cell is sealed, that's no longer an issue. A driver does not need to get out in a hurry if they're protected in a sealed cell.
    Ah, no need to worry about breathing then. Just hold your breath. I have to assume you've never been around a really hot gasoline fire. Sealed cell or not, it's going to get pretty toasty in there real fast.
    "Old roats am jake mit goats."
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  4. #14
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    There comes a point where the allure of auto racing begins to fade if there is no risk involved. How safe is safe enough? Or not safe enough. Or too safe?

    If we are really worried about safety then take the drivers out of the cars and let them compete by remote control from the pit lane. The technology for that is readily available now and relatively cheaply too. Just expect empty stands and TV ratings below your average infomercial.

    I'm not advocating a callous disregard for safety. Just putting things in perspective. Getting out of bed in the morning is a risk. Everything is a risk of some sort. I wonder about those calling for extreme safety measures as in no driver should lose their life. It sure doesn't match the record of road drivers in just about every country that has cars. I also haven't seen a drop off because of safety issues in those standing in line to get a ride in one of the F1 machines. Just sayin' you know?
    "Old roats am jake mit goats."
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  6. #15
    Senior Member truefan72's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Black Knight View Post
    It's been established that a closed cockpit would have made no difference to Bianchi's crash as it was the sudden deceleration that contributed the most to his injury.

    I'm personally not in favor of closed cockpits unless a solution can be found in which a driver's is not impeded from swiftly exiting the car in ALL situations. And that word ALL is extremely important because, with the safety standards so high nowadays, we're now at the point where only freak accidents are going to cost drivers lives. Therefore, if closed cockpits are introduced there must not be any situation where a drivers exit from the car is impeded, otherwise you're only removing the possibility of one type of accident and enhance the chance of another.

    We all saw Sainz's crash in Russia FP3. I'd be very concerned actually that a closed cockpit could have actually injured a driver in this kind of situation, especially with some of the solutions which have been brought forward.

    I remember Jenson Button came out and said he felt F1 should introduce closed cockpits after Justin Wilson's crash and I was quite surprised at Jenson's knee-jerk reaction as he is normally quite reserved. All closed cockpits solution unfortunately have drawbacks and, given the unlikelihood of losing a driver in modern day F1 vs the risk of closed cockpits, I'm not convinced that closed cockpits will provide any overall extra safety margin.
    Perfectly said Black Knight!!!
    you can't argue with results

  7. #16
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    Right then, my 2 cents. Heck I'll throw three in.

    Not sure if closed canopies are the way to go.

    However, I am past the point that something does have to change. Heads being so vulnerable and exposed are a tragedy waiting to happen. I was first really alerted to this after Australia 2007 when Alex Wurz rode over the top of David Coulthard's car. There was a sharp looking undertray sticking out under Wurz's Williams and I seemed the only to notice "flippin 'eck, that looks quite close to slicing 'is 'ead off".

    Where I really settled it once and for all was Abu Dhabi in 2010. Dunc posted a pic of that. The big issues that day were Sebby winning his first world title and the fallout of Alonso and Petrov etc. But overall I remember more the Michael Schumacher collision in the beginning.

    He spun round after possibly not even touching Rosberg, but then with cars sweeping past him, he just accelerated forward a very short amount. Fractions of a second later Liuzzi piled up onto his car with his car's nose to the right of Schumacher's head. Had Schumacher not accelerated forward that little bit, Liuzzi would literally have driven up into his face.

    So while there were celebrations, I was chilled at just how close we were to a fatality that day.

    There was also Alonso also being wiped out by Grosjean as well as Massa and the spring. With just a little less good fortune we could have had a handful of fatalities instead of just one or 2.

    Some simple sort of structure would be a good safety improvement, if not perfect, without the problems of a full canopy.





    Discaimer: I'm a bit biased because I know myself, being a tall guy, if I was driving those cars I would fear being in a rollover accident as I have much less space to crouch down and duck my head than most people. If I was a driver, I really think I'd actually prefer an inferno (in this day and age) to rolling upside down.
    SPAM - Going off topic to give you the deals you don't want.

  8. #17
    Senior Member Rollo's Avatar
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    This documentary film is quite interesting - I shall leave it here:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-vMPb5rkZM
    The Old Republic was a stupidly run organisation which deserved to be taken over. All Hail Palpatine!

  9. #18
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    Well done Rollo, that video gave really clear insights into what is possible. I particularly like the revelation that closed cockpit is not new to F1. It has been done in some way in the past. Though those chassis were much different to what they are nowadays, hence new design approach shall be used. I think there shall be alot of different cockpit canopy designs if this is adopted.

    I particularly like the the new level of access to the cock that could be available to the fans if cameras are fitted inside the cockpit to show what the driver is doing at particular points in time. It could be a great learning aid as well.

    I think we have seen enough for the discussion to move on to the subjective aspect of deciding if this should be implemented. Or at least for a trial phase to kick in before the commencement of the 2016 season.

    I personally think that another death in F1 or any motor racing due to head trauma will be a measure of the FIA's failing to keep up with its safety commitments to F1.
    Last edited by Nitrodaze; 21st October 2015 at 19:26.

  10. #19
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    And the beat goes on; the head protection discussion has cast aside the closed cockpit idea for an open cockpit solution. The FIA has looked at a number of propositions but seem to be settling for the design put forward by Mercedes; see http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/122599

    The Mercedes idea has one minor flaw in that it has a small blindspot in corners. It might not be significant when the car is navigating corners without other cars present, but may prove tricky when a gaggle of cars are jostling through the corners in a pack. Then there is the question of resilience to hard impact from hard objects or big projectiles like a flying tyre etc. Safe to say, agreement on the way forward is yet to be agreed.

    The Mercedes design looks funky, certainly more aesthetically pleasing than the other designs put forward. the question remains whether it would hold up to tough testing. Whatever the case, l am glad to see something is being done.
    Last edited by Nitrodaze; 6th February 2016 at 12:48.

  11. #20
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    The Mercedes design is absolutely hideous and I don't really know how effective it is in an accident like Massa's

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