Neuville vs Mouton

[bassist]

Forgive me if I am wrong here, but wasnt Rallying initially about endurance in adverse conditions coupled with navigation from point A to B? Yes speed came into it, and i am the first to take my hat off to the current string of WRC drivers, who control their mounts with remarkable skill and bravery. I seem to remember a term used in the 80`s that Group `B` were referred to as `Forest Racers`, and rightly so for the spectacle that they provided. Wernt most events longer, both in duration and stage mileage? Didnt the teams compete in all corners of the globe,and experience all that worlds weather and terrain could throw at them? Didnt drivers have to be hosed down in places like San Remo, because of the sheer physical effort and dehydration of driving in intense heat? Wasnt the Safari a Care Breaker, and a total lottery to predict the result? Wasnt Monte Carlo a mix of speed and caution on ice, coupled with weather breaks that decided the outcome?
Well as far as i can see, the conditions havnt changed much for the current crop of drivers, but the events are less arduous, and yes, the margins are closer. But really for all this whining and grizzling about Dust/cleaning roads etc, is surely taking away the ethos of the sport. Grow up boys and just get on with peddling your half million pound vehicles as fast as possible, whatever conditions you face. You will all be more highly thought of if you do. This is not Formula One , it`s about the `the big outdoors`and getting `stuck in`.

[BleAivano]

Michele Mouton is getting a battering from Neuville and several others of the modern rally drivers because she advocates night driving and other aspects the modern crop of drivers dont like.

This is from Autosport:
Hyundai's Thierry Neuville said drivers wanted Mouton - the 1982 WRC runner-up - to experience first-hand what the current field were facing.
"Things have changed since she was competing," said Neuville.
"When she was driving, it was with half-speed, old tyres without grip and they were fighting for minutes, not for tenths of seconds.
"The invitation is not only coming from me to sit in the car, it's from all of the drivers - every one of us would like the chance to show Michele how is it today compared with when she was driving."

Well, I would like to comment on all these statements made by Neuville. But in stead of it being only personal and subjective comments, I would like to use Junnkas (juwra.com) incredible WRC archive to see if Neuville is on to something, or not.

"Things have changed since she was competing,"

Well, lets see if they have.

Sweden 1983 vs 2015
Total distance: 1.499,1 vs 1.441,7
Days: 3 vs 4
SS distance: 470,1 km vs 308,0 km
Fastest stage: 135,9 km/t vs 117,65 km/t
Slowest stage: 90,16 km/t vs 57,49 km/t

There is no way you can claim that Rally Sweden 2015 is 4 days long. More like 2 days plus 1 SSS on Thursday plus a 3-4 stages on Sunday.

[Simmi]

Forgive me if I am wrong here, but wasnt Rallying initially about endurance in adverse conditions coupled with navigation from point A to B? Yes speed came into it, and i am the first to take my hat off to the current string of WRC drivers, who control their mounts with remarkable skill and bravery. I seem to remember a term used in the 80`s that Group `B` were referred to as `Forest Racers`, and rightly so for the spectacle that they provided. Wernt most events longer, both in duration and stage mileage? Didnt the teams compete in all corners of the globe,and experience all that worlds weather and terrain could throw at them? Didnt drivers have to be hosed down in places like San Remo, because of the sheer physical effort and dehydration of driving in intense heat? Wasnt the Safari a Care Breaker, and a total lottery to predict the result? Wasnt Monte Carlo a mix of speed and caution on ice, coupled with weather breaks that decided the outcome?
Well as far as i can see, the conditions havnt changed much for the current crop of drivers, but the events are less arduous, and yes, the margins are closer. But really for all this whining and grizzling about Dust/cleaning roads etc, is surely taking away the ethos of the sport. Grow up boys and just get on with peddling your half million pound vehicles as fast as possible, whatever conditions you face. You will all be more highly thought of if you do. This is not Formula One , it`s about the `the big outdoors`and getting `stuck in`.

Lovely post. Agree with you on a lot of levels.

Really this current night/dust flashpoint is just the latest issue in a sport struggling for its identity. It's something countless promoters and an FIA where Group B stalwarts hold influence still can't figure out.

You could literally write a thesis on the whole debate. Making the events shorter, more formulaic and 'for TV' hasn't really seen the championship gain any extra exposure. But the manufacturers are here.

You could move away from the current model, expand the rallies, increase the running, (all of which increases the cost) and hope you develop more stories and displays of heroics. The VIPs won't be as happy and the Hyundai mechanics might have to work outside.

I don't have the answer as to how you infuse the old school and new school. And clearly neither does anyone else.

[rallyace]

It's great to see so many brilliant points made. It makes for some great reading and you begin to reflect on what the WRC is, used to be, and what will be in the future.

Neuville's comments not only seem to be his own personal opinion, but could be seen as a general view shared by many other drivers as well. His comments towards night driving (and Mouton) can be viewed almost as a "modern rally driver's" view on the current state of the WRC, and that's a shame. Perhaps I'm alone in the following opinion, but to be a top-level athlete in any sport, especially one as diverse and rich in history as the WRC, you need to have a proper understanding of its past. The road to success not only includes cutting tenths of seconds through corners in the darkness of Col de Turini, it's also about understanding the glorious nature of the sport and why you put yourself in that driver's seat to begin with. How can a works driver (and one who thinks so highly of himself) see the glorious group B era as cars that were "driving at half speed" with rubbish tires? It's true that the modern WRC car is a way more complete and "better" car than the old group B monsters, but surely that's a point of view that is too scientifical. It's a mentality of "if it's faster, it's better" whilst overlooking a main aspect of rallying: Pure passion.

There's no denying that the WRC wouldn't be what it is today if it had not been for all of the championship's past, for the better and worse. By uttering such negative comments regarding Mouton's rallying heyday, all Neuville is doing is demoting the history of the sport. Not only is this classless (and pointless), but perhaps more importantly, it's missing the point of the sport.

Take Jari-Matti Latvala for instance. This man breathes rallying day in and day out. He not only has world-class skill, but he has a knowledge of the sport's past like no other. What does this make him? A true character in the sport of the WRC. And sadly, we need more of those. The sport used to be littered with them: Mäkinen, McRae, Solberg, Grönholm, Sainz... people who had "rallying" written all over them. You'd ask someone like Juha Kankkunen after a stage which tyres he'd been using and he'd say "round and black". These were true characters in their own way, and that's very appealing to fans worldwide. Everyone seems to speak of lengthening rallies, adding locations to the caldender etc., but as long as the WRC consists of characters who are similar-minded, politically correct (except for a few Ogier-like moments, of course) the sport won't appeal to anyone. Rallying isn't a "team sport" in the same way as football, ice hockey or rugby. So if you, as a potential fan of the sport, don't like these individuals driving in the WRC complaining about night stages and hanging dust, what are the chances of becoming a devoted follower of the sport?

[Rallyper]

Or the whiners (jag tänke säga gnäll-pellisar o tänke va fan är pluralis av en gnäll-pelle? Hjälp!)

It IS precisely the lack of BIG ADVENTURE!and the lack of unpredictability, coupled with pampered nature of EVERYBODY at the highest level which has made rally "a mere contest of speed".

En gnäll-pelle, flera gnäll-pellar. Just to let you know

[Lundefaret]

It's great to see so many brilliant points made. It makes for some great reading and you begin to reflect on what the WRC is, used to be, and what will be in the future.

Neuville's comments not only seem to be his own personal opinion, but could be seen as a general view shared by many other drivers as well. His comments towards night driving (and Mouton) can be viewed almost as a "modern rally driver's" view on the current state of the WRC, and that's a shame. Perhaps I'm alone in the following opinion, but to be a top-level athlete in any sport, especially one as diverse and rich in history as the WRC, you need to have a proper understanding of its past. The road to success not only includes cutting tenths of seconds through corners in the darkness of Col de Turini, it's also about understanding the glorious nature of the sport and why you put yourself in that driver's seat to begin with. How can a works driver (and one who thinks so highly of himself) see the glorious group B era as cars that were "driving at half speed" with rubbish tires? It's true that the modern WRC car is a way more complete and "better" car than the old group B monsters, but surely that's a point of view that is too scientifical. It's a mentality of "if it's faster, it's better" whilst overlooking a main aspect of rallying: Pure passion.

There's no denying that the WRC wouldn't be what it is today if it had not been for all of the championship's past, for the better and worse. By uttering such negative comments regarding Mouton's rallying heyday, all Neuville is doing is demoting the history of the sport. Not only is this classless (and pointless), but perhaps more importantly, it's missing the point of the sport.

Take Jari-Matti Latvala for instance. This man breathes rallying day in and day out. He not only has world-class skill, but he has a knowledge of the sport's past like no other. What does this make him? A true character in the sport of the WRC. And sadly, we need more of those. The sport used to be littered with them: Mäkinen, McRae, Solberg, Grönholm, Sainz... people who had "rallying" written all over them. You'd ask someone like Juha Kankkunen after a stage which tyres he'd been using and he'd say "round and black". These were true characters in their own way, and that's very appealing to fans worldwide. Everyone seems to speak of lengthening rallies, adding locations to the caldender etc., but as long as the WRC consists of characters who are similar-minded, politically correct (except for a few Ogier-like moments, of course) the sport won't appeal to anyone. Rallying isn't a "team sport" in the same way as football, ice hockey or rugby. So if you, as a potential fan of the sport, don't like these individuals driving in the WRC complaining about night stages and hanging dust, what are the chances of becoming a devoted follower of the sport?

+1

Very well written!

Here is a movie from Monte in 1983, seems flat out to me
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lFi8NgnNd90

[tommeke_B]

The sport has changed a lot. In positive and negative ways, only negative ways for the nostalgic people among us. Sure the sport was much more adventurous in the 70s-80s... But the sport became much more professional throughout the years. How would people react now if Ogier were to say "I don't like Finland, not going to drive it"? Fact is that Walter Röhrl, one of the great heroes of the old days, multiple world champion, never ever competed in Finland. Some claim that he knew he wasn't quick enough, and didn't want to ridicule himself... Other facts are that drivers could make huge differences much easier than they can now. If someone went "big attack" in the old days, let's say 80s or even 90s, they could gain up to half a minute on one stage... Does it mean they were supernatural for a moment, or does it mean that the drivers kept more margin most of the time?

I heard and read many interesting opinions throughout the years. One of the most interesting is from a former national driver in Belgium, someone who was active in 80s and 90s. He said that what the current generation of drivers is doing is crazy, and they couldn't imagine it 20 years ago. How drivers now do 2 passes of recce, watch the onboards from it a couple of times and then go flat out on it to fight on seconds (or tenths of seconds) is stunning. 20 (and more) years ago drivers did a lot of training, there wasn't really any official recce, just weeks of training before the big events. Drivers had very simple pacenotes they probably only used for their own orientation, to remember where they were. Remember the onboard from Vatanen in Manx '83, where the notes didn't tell much more than "easy left easy right, K-left, flat right". This is very different from what we are seeing/hearing in onboards nowadays. Nowadays drivers make much better/more detailed notes with fewer runs on the stages.

I think it's correct, what Neuville said. Things have changed and the gaps are much smaller, drivers are closer to the limit (but in cars where it's probably easier to find that limit). Anyway it doesn't mean Thierry was doing the right thing by what he said, there were better ways to express his thoughts this time... No true sportsman should ever criticize/minimize the achievements of others, especially when they were made in a time before he himself was even born...

[danon]

[bowler]

Neuville's comments were made out of frustration.
He had a bad stage time
he was having a bad rally
He's having a bad season
following another bad season

and it has to be someone's fault.

The problem is that he should be looking into the mirror for a solution, not attacking others.

[Karukera]

Less arguments and more weight on the right foot, Thierry.