Neuville vs Mouton

[rayh_mx]

Regardless of all that can be said about the before and after stages all participants are executed with the same conditions, if it is night, all night run, if there is fog, dust, moisture.

Sure, you may have some rain and some just wet, but it's ralling.

[Mirek]

Regardless of all that can be said about the before and after stages all participants are executed with the same conditions, if it is night, all night run, if there is fog, dust, moisture.

Sure, you may have some rain and some just wet, but it's ralling.

Unfortunately it's not same conditions. For example only WRC drivers have 3-4 minutes gaps in night gravel stages. Others have to do it with 1 minute etc.

[rayh_mx]

Unfortunately it's not same conditions. For example only WRC drivers have 3-4 minutes gaps in night gravel stages. Others have to do it with 1 minute etc.

The point is that nothing like it, if the dust, if I get out first, if that record the time at the end of the stage is not handsome and so on.

The only way would be the same conditions from the comfort of a simulator, and could even be in the air and calling for an occasional drink for better hang

[Simmi]

A lot of people have been comparing dust to fog, driving snow, heavy rain etc.

The difference for me is that the dust can be accurately predicted. The others are random, natural factors and are not caused by the cars themselves.

[Mk2 RS2000]

The difference for me is that the dust can be accurately predicted..

Not in our neck of the woods

[itix]

Michele Mouton is getting a battering from Neuville and several others of the modern rally drivers because she advocates night driving and other aspects the modern crop of drivers dont like.

This is from Autosport:
Hyundai's Thierry Neuville said drivers wanted Mouton - the 1982 WRC runner-up - to experience first-hand what the current field were facing.
"Things have changed since she was competing," said Neuville.
"When she was driving, it was with half-speed, old tyres without grip and they were fighting for minutes, not for tenths of seconds.
"The invitation is not only coming from me to sit in the car, it's from all of the drivers - every one of us would like the chance to show Michele how is it today compared with when she was driving."

Well, I would like to comment on all these statements made by Neuville. But in stead of it being only personal and subjective comments, I would like to use Junnkas (juwra.com) incredible WRC archive to see if Neuville is on to something, or not.

"Things have changed since she was competing,"

Well, lets see if they have.

Monte Carlo 1983 vs 2015
Total distance: 4196,8 km vs 1.383,2
Days: 7 vs 4
SS distance: 716,8 km vs 355,48
Fastest stage: 112,22 km/t vs 111,69 km/t
Slowest stage: 70,82 km/t vs 80,46 km/t

Sweden 1983 vs 2015
Total distance: 1.499,1 vs 1.441,7
Days: 3 vs 4
SS distance: 470,1 km vs 308,0 km
Fastest stage: 135,9 km/t vs 117,65 km/t
Slowest stage: 90,16 km/t vs 57,49 km/t

Portugal 1983 vs 2015
Total distance: 2.399.9 km vs 1.501,9 km
Days: 4 vs 4
SS distance: 643,0 km vs 352,1 km
Fastest stage: 134,33 km/t vs 100,14 km/t
Slowest stage: 75,12 km/t vs 75,08 km/t

Finland 1983 vs 2015
Total distance: 1.461,0 km vs 1.260,6 km
Days: 3 vs 4
SS distance: 472,43 km vs 320,0 km
Fastest stage: 134,05 km/t vs 135,25 km/t
Slowest stage: 66,06 km/t vs 75,25 km/t

Tour de Corce 1983 vs 2008
Total distance: 1.715,1 km vs 1.094,3
Days: 3 vs 3
SS distance: 1.066,1 km vs 359,0 km
Fastest stage: 97,45 km/t vs 106,48 km/t
Slowest stage: 76,43 km/t vs 88,04 km/t

2015 is Shorter: Well, things have changed. Rallies have gotten shorter. In Tour de Corce the total km of Special Stages are just 1/3 of 1983. And that in the same number of days.
2015 is Slower: Most rallies had higher maximum stage speed in 1983 compared to 2015.


"When she was driving, it was with half-speed, old tyres without grip and they were fighting for minutes, not for tenths of seconds.

Well. Half speed?
No, it could not have been half speed.
Performance wise a 1983 Audi would have about the same power as a 2015 car, but would be lighter. It would be (A LOT) more difficult to drive in respects to the manual transmission, weight distribution, diffs, tires, dampers etc. When we see that the stage speeds are faster in 1983 than 2015 (not the same stages off course) I think we safely can say that the drivers drove flat out. This we also can see in the number of offs between the top drivers. Reece was also completely different, where You could in most cases do the stages as many times as You liked, and this would often be practiced at very high speeds.
The exception is the Safari and Ivory cost, which today is comparable to Endurance rally events.

Old tires?
Well, they were new then The tires off course had a lot less grip than today.

Fighting for minutes, not tenths of seconds?
Well...
In 2015 Neuville was fourth in Finland 3 minutes and 59 seconds off the leader.
In 1983 Per Eklund was fourth in Finland 2 minutes and 19 seconds off the leader.
The fact that the rallies was longer, and that there was no SuperRally should be taken in account. Also that there was differences in tire strategy/usages.

Conclusion:
I think its an alarm signal when modern rally drivers complain about things like dust, darkness, early mornings, late evenings, not posh enough hotels etc.
Its not their fault, because it is not them that have evolved the sport of rallying to what it has become.
But what we have now is drivers that are much more like circuit drivers, and a sport that is much more like circuit driving than before.
If it was foggy, dark, dusty, muddy etc in 1983, well, You had to adjust Your attack to that fact.
I understand Neuville, because he has been brought up in a totally different sport than Mouton, but not different in the ways he thinks.
It was just as much flat out driving in Moutons time (on comparable stages/rallies), but the sport was much harder, and the drivers and teams had to endure much more discomfort.

In such respect Mouton has more chest hair and bigger balls than Neuville, because You had to have it to be competitive in that time. But because of this she will have difficulty communicating to the pampered drivers of today, because it will be difficult for here to take in how easy living WRC rallying has become.

I my self have been a passenger in both WRC cars (driven by WRC drivers including Loeb and Østberg), and other earlier rallycars like a 1985 quattro S1 E2 and a 1983 quattro A2. I think Mouton would be disappointed being a passenger in a modern WRC car. It is off course blindingly fast, but because of the dampers - where You would be shaking around and really feeling the road and the speed in a 1983 rally car - You are whiskered away on a magic carpet in a 2015 WRC car. I dont think she would be very impressed to be honest. And I think this is why really passionate drivers like Latvala and Meeke has - what I would think - even more fun in old classic rally cars than in modern ones.

Rally needs to bring back some of the mojo of earlier days, combined with new possibilities in connecting the sport to the public. I think its better to listen to Mouton than to Neuville.

Couldn't have agreed more. Perfect analysis.

The fans are behind you Mouton, don't give in to the pressure from drivers.

[rallyace]

I side with Mouton. However, regardless of who's "right" and who's wrong, it's quite disrespectful of Neuville to make such comments.

"When she was driving, it was with half-speed, old tyres without grip..." Very condescending if you ask me, bordering on arrogant. Quite "displeased Ogier"-like comments, to be honest.

[janvanvurpa]

Couldn't have agreed more. Perfect analysis.

The fans are behind you Mouton, don't give in to the pressure from drivers.

Or the whiners (jag tänke säga gnäll-pellisar o tänke va fan är pluralis av en gnäll-pelle? Hjälp!)

It IS precisely the lack of BIG ADVENTURE!and the lack of unpredictability, coupled with pampered nature of EVERYBODY at the highest level which has made rally "a mere contest of speed".

[Grundo Farb]

Great summary Lundefaret and I agree Rallyace, irrespective of who is right or wrong Neuvilles comments are terrible. And besides, when was the last time Neuville fought for 10ths of seconds?

I liked Paddons comments about it in the Rallysport mag "The end of leg night stage was a nice challenge, and while there was some hanging dust, I enjoyed it."

Dust is dust, it doesn't matter if you car was from the 70's, 80's or 2015. The drivers from all eras needed to drive as fast as they can in the conditions with the technology they have.

[Grundo Farb]

In fact the drivers of old had to deal with spectators in the road in a way the current group don't. By no stretch am I saying they should be it must have been very difficult.

http://motormavens.com/2012/06/rally...k-their-lives/

The more I have thought about this the more annoyed I am at these modern drivers.