Neuville vs Mouton

[Lundefaret]

Michele Mouton is getting a battering from Neuville and several others of the modern rally drivers because she advocates night driving and other aspects the modern crop of drivers dont like.

This is from Autosport:
Hyundai's Thierry Neuville said drivers wanted Mouton - the 1982 WRC runner-up - to experience first-hand what the current field were facing.
"Things have changed since she was competing," said Neuville.
"When she was driving, it was with half-speed, old tyres without grip and they were fighting for minutes, not for tenths of seconds.
"The invitation is not only coming from me to sit in the car, it's from all of the drivers - every one of us would like the chance to show Michele how is it today compared with when she was driving."

Well, I would like to comment on all these statements made by Neuville. But in stead of it being only personal and subjective comments, I would like to use Junnkas (juwra.com) incredible WRC archive to see if Neuville is on to something, or not.

"Things have changed since she was competing,"

Well, lets see if they have.

Monte Carlo 1983 vs 2015
Total distance: 4196,8 km vs 1.383,2
Days: 7 vs 4
SS distance: 716,8 km vs 355,48
Fastest stage: 112,22 km/t vs 111,69 km/t
Slowest stage: 70,82 km/t vs 80,46 km/t

Sweden 1983 vs 2015
Total distance: 1.499,1 vs 1.441,7
Days: 3 vs 4
SS distance: 470,1 km vs 308,0 km
Fastest stage: 135,9 km/t vs 117,65 km/t
Slowest stage: 90,16 km/t vs 57,49 km/t

Portugal 1983 vs 2015
Total distance: 2.399.9 km vs 1.501,9 km
Days: 4 vs 4
SS distance: 643,0 km vs 352,1 km
Fastest stage: 134,33 km/t vs 100,14 km/t
Slowest stage: 75,12 km/t vs 75,08 km/t

Finland 1983 vs 2015
Total distance: 1.461,0 km vs 1.260,6 km
Days: 3 vs 4
SS distance: 472,43 km vs 320,0 km
Fastest stage: 134,05 km/t vs 135,25 km/t
Slowest stage: 66,06 km/t vs 75,25 km/t

Tour de Corce 1983 vs 2008
Total distance: 1.715,1 km vs 1.094,3
Days: 3 vs 3
SS distance: 1.066,1 km vs 359,0 km
Fastest stage: 97,45 km/t vs 106,48 km/t
Slowest stage: 76,43 km/t vs 88,04 km/t

2015 is Shorter: Well, things have changed. Rallies have gotten shorter. In Tour de Corce the total km of Special Stages are just 1/3 of 1983. And that in the same number of days.
2015 is Slower: Most rallies had higher maximum stage speed in 1983 compared to 2015.


"When she was driving, it was with half-speed, old tyres without grip and they were fighting for minutes, not for tenths of seconds.

Well. Half speed?
No, it could not have been half speed.
Performance wise a 1983 Audi would have about the same power as a 2015 car, but would be lighter. It would be (A LOT) more difficult to drive in respects to the manual transmission, weight distribution, diffs, tires, dampers etc. When we see that the stage speeds are faster in 1983 than 2015 (not the same stages off course) I think we safely can say that the drivers drove flat out. This we also can see in the number of offs between the top drivers. Reece was also completely different, where You could in most cases do the stages as many times as You liked, and this would often be practiced at very high speeds.
The exception is the Safari and Ivory cost, which today is comparable to Endurance rally events.

Old tires?
Well, they were new then The tires off course had a lot less grip than today.

Fighting for minutes, not tenths of seconds?
Well...
In 2015 Neuville was fourth in Finland 3 minutes and 59 seconds off the leader.
In 1983 Per Eklund was fourth in Finland 2 minutes and 19 seconds off the leader.
The fact that the rallies was longer, and that there was no SuperRally should be taken in account. Also that there was differences in tire strategy/usages.

Conclusion:
I think its an alarm signal when modern rally drivers complain about things like dust, darkness, early mornings, late evenings, not posh enough hotels etc.
Its not their fault, because it is not them that have evolved the sport of rallying to what it has become.
But what we have now is drivers that are much more like circuit drivers, and a sport that is much more like circuit driving than before.
If it was foggy, dark, dusty, muddy etc in 1983, well, You had to adjust Your attack to that fact.
I understand Neuville, because he has been brought up in a totally different sport than Mouton, but not different in the ways he thinks.
It was just as much flat out driving in Moutons time (on comparable stages/rallies), but the sport was much harder, and the drivers and teams had to endure much more discomfort.

In such respect Mouton has more chest hair and bigger balls than Neuville, because You had to have it to be competitive in that time. But because of this she will have difficulty communicating to the pampered drivers of today, because it will be difficult for here to take in how easy living WRC rallying has become.

I my self have been a passenger in both WRC cars (driven by WRC drivers including Loeb and Østberg), and other earlier rallycars like a 1985 quattro S1 E2 and a 1983 quattro A2. I think Mouton would be disappointed being a passenger in a modern WRC car. It is off course blindingly fast, but because of the dampers - where You would be shaking around and really feeling the road and the speed in a 1983 rally car - You are whiskered away on a magic carpet in a 2015 WRC car. I dont think she would be very impressed to be honest. And I think this is why really passionate drivers like Latvala and Meeke has - what I would think - even more fun in old classic rally cars than in modern ones.

Rally needs to bring back some of the mojo of earlier days, combined with new possibilities in connecting the sport to the public. I think its better to listen to Mouton than to Neuville.

[N.O.T]

Neuville gave that old man a lesson... well said terry although you are crap as a driver the last 2 seasons.

[Rallyper]

Neuville gave that old man a lesson... well said terry although you are crap as a driver the last 2 seasons.

Haven´t you understood one thing of the statement above? Lundefaret points out exactly everything that isn´t today. Yesterdays drivers were men and one woman. And nowadays we have only a few men, other are boys.

[N.O.T]

the old man comment was for that Mutton person.

Compared to todays drivers those of the 80s with an exception of kannkunen should just crawl back to their caves and not have an opinion about the sport anymore... driving around in slow motion has nothing to do with what the proper drivers of today do.

[Mirek]

Lundefaret, I don't want to make advocate to Neuville but You made some wrong assumptions. The high average speed of some stages in 1980' was mostly due to the nature of such stages and the fact that such stages are not run anymore as they are seen as useless with modern cars. In the same corners the cars were really a looot slower than today.

I can give You an example with stage Pindula of Barum rally.

In 1983 Harrald Demuth with Quattro A2 had average speed 94,6 km/h. When it was last time run in same direction in 2010 in the same length the average speed of Valoušek with works Fabia S2000 was 112,6 km/h. The difference is 9,6 s/km which is enormous. The road of course wasn't in same condition (but as large part of the road was built in 1980' it was maybe better than now when it is very very rough). Also there were no chicanes in 1983 but several in 2010.

Let's say that half of the 1983 Barum route is seen nowadays as useless due to looong straights on rpm limiter, few difficult places etc. On the other hand there were some extremely difficult stages which are not run anymore for various reasons (such as Pržno-Kateřinice). Also adding several soft sandy stages in a Safari style to a tarmac rally is a big no no today but it was normal in that time.

[AndyRAC]

The problem is that the modern driver has been brought up with the modern 9-5 'office hours' WRC events - that's all they know, just like a lot of the modern fans.

Anybody who thinks the modern era WRC is better than ever, seriously needs help. The WRC has been the most 'dumbed down' of world Motorsport.

[Lundefaret]

Lundefaret, I don't want to make advocate to Neuville but You made some wrong assumptions. The high average speed of some stages in 1980' was mostly due to the nature of such stages and the fact that such stages are not run anymore as they are seen as useless with modern cars. In the same corners the cars were really a looot slower than today.

I can give You an example with stage Pindula of Barum rally.

In 1983 Harrald Demuth with Quattro A2 had average speed 94,6 km/h. When it was last time run in same direction in 2010 in the same length the average speed of Valoušek with works Fabia S2000 was 112,6 km/h. The difference is 9,6 s/km which is enormous. The road of course wasn't in same condition (but as large part of the road was built in 1980' it was maybe better than now when it is very very rough). Also there were no chicanes in 1983 but several in 2010.

Let's say that half of the 1983 Barum route is seen nowadays as useless due to looong straights on rpm limiter, few difficult places etc. On the other hand there were some extremely difficult stages which are not run anymore for various reasons (such as Pržno-Kateřinice). Also adding several soft sandy stages in a Safari style to a tarmac rally is a big no no today but it was normal in that time.

Off course I know that the cars where slower, the point I am making is that the drivers was just as fast, and that the drivers, codrivers, mechanics etc, had to endure A LOT more discomfort, in every possible way. The events where much tougher, so the teams had to be too.

Neuville stating that Mouton should come with him in a car to show her how the sport has changed, thinking she would be gobsmacked by the experience, it is just so devoid of any knowledge of WRC history in general, and Moutons history in detail, that I am mowing Neuville over in the "spoiled brat" category of modern rally drivers.

In stead of Mouton riding in a WRC car with Neuville, I would suggest that Neuville accompanies Kris Meeke the next time he is doing the Baja 1000 solo on a motorbike.

The Hyundai service park is the best symbol of how the sport has changed. Now even the mechanics can't work outside, they have to bring the fricking work shop with them... Oh my...

[Simmi]

I think there's one big misconception here which is that modern rally drivers don't want to do stages in the dark.

I think Ogier made one quite sweeping statement about night stages and gravel, but he went on to talk about the dust - which was the only issue here. Paul Nagle said last night on the Absolute Rally podcast that the crews don't have any issue with driving at night. He said some of the most incredible stages of the WRC are after dark. The issue is simply the dust and how it puts you at a set disadvantage to the first man on the road. The drivers and teams also feel upset that they weren't listened to despite raising the issue at multiple points.

Maybe if the events were a lot longer a small stage with a bit of dust is not an issue. But nowadays each rally is so short that the drivers don't want to be giving anything away.

Honestly I can see why Mouton would be offended by some of Neuville's comments - as he's essentially belittling what the Group B drivers went through. I think in general the current WRC service park should harden up a bit. But I don't support the inclusion of a short 8km, mickey mouse night stage that was just shoe-horned into the event as a gimmick. Clearly it wasn't worth the bother.

[Mirek]

It's not so easy to say that it used to be tougher in those days. The cars weren't so durable (but service was available after every stage) and the crews mostly had reasonably worse physical codnition than today. Nowadays all professional drivers from WRC are kind of athletes in the way they do gymnastics, excercises in sauna, eat special food etc. We shall not take the speeding-up too easy. It's very demanding for the crews to cope with such speeds.

All in all I don't want to say that it's harder today than it used to be back in 80' or vice versa. I want to say that it's very missleading to judge from some particular values such as stage distance. I don't think that someone smoking cigars after every stage could get in top 10 of WRC today.

[Lundefaret]

I think there's one big misconception here which is that modern rally drivers don't want to do stages in the dark.

I think Ogier made one quite sweeping statement about night stages and gravel, but he went on to talk about the dust - which was the only issue here. Paul Nagle said last night on the Absolute Rally podcast that the crews don't have any issue with driving at night. He said some of the most incredible stages of the WRC are after dark. The issue is simply the dust and how it puts you at a set disadvantage to the first man on the road. The drivers and teams also feel upset that they weren't listened to despite raising the issue at multiple points.

Maybe if the events were a lot longer a small stage with a bit of dust is not an issue. But nowadays each rally is so short that the drivers don't want to be giving anything away.

Honestly I can see why Mouton would be offended by some of Neuville's comments - as he's essentially belittling what the Group B drivers went through. I think in general the current WRC service park should harden up a bit. But I don't support the inclusion of a short 8km, mickey mouse night stage that was just shoe-horned into the event as a gimmick. Clearly it wasn't worth the bother.

I partly agree with You. But the dust thing is not the inly complaint nowadays.
Several of the top WRC drivers complains if the last stage is too late and the first stage is too early, so they dont get their full 8 hours of beauty sleep. Etc etc.

The WRC as a whole needs to harden up a bit. The drivers won't give away comfort willingly, so someone in the FIA should take charge and make rallying a modern version of what is the legend of the WRC.

There has newer been a time better suited for rallying as a sport than right now, given the incredible opportunities that exists in the form of scissile media, the inter web, etc. But to create a demand for rallying, it needs to be a concept that makes it easy to tell great stories. And today, with the androgyne look-a-like events it is not, and with drivers complaining like they do - sounding like spoiled primadonnas, in stead of tough and hard heroes, they dont help either.