Horner whines to the FIA

[Rollo]

Anyway, who wants to see a drinks manufacturer dominate F1? I certainly don't.

Would you be fine if a fashion brand did instead?

[jens]

We had plenty of car manufacturers in F1 until 2009, when many of them pulled out due to recession. At the moment we have four big ones (as engine manufacturers), and at least two of them seriously struggle to be competitive. We should not overestimate the value of F1 that big manufacturers would just join. For starters I don't see Audi in F1 any time soon. If they wanted to be in F1, they would already have joined. F1 is in dire state and does not attract sponsors easily, let alone team owners. Red Bull's commitment (with two teams) has been one of the few good things happening to F1.

Oh, and by the way, I am fine with a "drinks company" success. Yeah, they do not produce cars, but F1 is a weird sport. Red Bull is very active in the extreme sports sphere as a sponsor. F1 is also sort of extreme in terms of how the cars look like and cutting-edge development. Red Bull sits just fine there.

[Hawkmoon]

F1 doesn't need car manufacturers to own teams, quite the contrary in fact. Car manufacturers are the very epitome of fair weather friends when it comes to F1. Ferrari are the only one who has stuck with the sport through thick and thin. Sure, the Old Man would throw a hissy fit from time-to-time and threaten to leave but he never followed through. Honda, Mercedes, Renault, Toyota, Ford and BMW have all had a go at team ownership and in every single case quit when the going got tough. Mercedes deserve some credit for sticking with the sport for the last 20 years but can anyone really see them going 20 years without a title and staying the course as Ferrari did? I certainly can't.

F1 needs the manufacturers to be involved on the engine side but that's it. Nobody suggests that Pirelli runs their own team and think the sport would be better off if the manufacturers would stick to supplying engines just as Pirelli do in supplying tyres.

[airshifter]

I've never liked when any one team dominates Formula 1, but I dislike it even more now.

I think the primary differences right now are the integration of the power sources into the chassis, as well as domination of those power units. With the limits on testing being tighter, it's no shock that the factory teams should have an upper hand, as from day one the entire car was designed with their power units in mind. The others have to play catch up more to put together a total package.

In past years, teams like RB and Brawn came out on top with the big factors being their ability to think outside the box and exploit loopholes in rules with things like the double decker diffuser, blown diffusers, etc. Other teams did it with a "whole package" approach, such as the years of Ferrari domination.

With the current situation, it seems that only the huge resources of Ferrari even have a chance with catching up with the Mercedes factory car. Well catching up within less than a second of a lap. And personally I think it's just more based on the power units than anything else this time. Go Mercedes, or go home.

Over time I'm sure it will change as the other teams get things in order. But personally I think some of the best years often come after the engine/power unit regs are years in and all teams have had time to get their power sources more in line with one another.

[Doc Austin]

Red Bull's commitment (with two teams) has been one of the few good things happening to F1.

Not to even mention how many cars they are sponsoring in the lower formulas. They also used to run cars in Indycar and Nascar.

I think the only reason we see some people not liking Red Bull is because they won too much. Still, red Bull is racing cars and planes and skydiving from space. They are everywhere people are playing extreme sports.

I thought Red Bull was crazy to let Vettel take points from webber late in 2010 (because Alonso could have beaten them both), but while other teams talk about sport and letting their drivers race, Red Bull does it when both championships are on the line.

I'm also happier about Red Bull owning four cars than any liquor or cigarette companies ..... or condoms companies.

[Rollo]

Ferrari are the only one who has stuck with the sport through thick and thin. Sure, the Old Man would throw a hissy fit from time-to-time and threaten to leave but he never followed through. Honda, Mercedes, Renault, Toyota, Ford and BMW have all had a go at team ownership and in every single case quit when the going got tough. Mercedes deserve some credit for sticking with the sport for the last 20 years but can anyone really see them going 20 years without a title and staying the course as Ferrari did? I certainly can't.

Ferrari are the same kind of operation as McLaren which has been around since 1966 and Williams which has been around since 1977. Ferrari are unlike Honda, Mercedes, Renault, Toyota, Ford and BMW in that Ferrari aren't firstly a car company - they are a racing team which happens to sell cars.

[CNR]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/118139
"Bob Fernley, deputy team principal of fellow Mercedes customer Force India, stressed that this is a contractual obligation.

"Yes, and the contract states that," Fernley told AUTOSPORT when asked whether Force India has engine parity.

"All fairness to Mercedes, they have always been straight with us."
"
HPP are constantly checking the data and all the power units are exceptionally close in performance.

so in other words Mercedes take the best ones when they come off the engine dyno

[jens]

To add a bit to the discussion, one-team domination is never good for F1, regardless of intra-team battle, but the roots for domination lie in general competition strength. Because if the field is very spread out and the level of teams very different, it automatically increases the likelihood of domination.

I'd say one of the recent (last 20-30 years) most competitive periods were 2005-2009. We had then 6 car manufacturers competing and lots of well-funded teams. Also in each of those seasons we had at least two teams, who were capable of fighting for the title, be it either Renault, McLaren, Ferrari or in the case of 2009 Brawn and Red Bull. I think this is no coincidence. Greater general depth in the field means it is harder to rise clearly above others.

Another thing is that the current engine rules are truly radical and costly, even looking at F1 history. This at the time, when there is obvious lack of money in F1. I mean even if some big manufacturers (Renault, Honda) seriously struggle to design a competitive engine, what hope do others have? And those privateer teams, who need to buy those expensive power units and integrate their chassis accordingly? The new engine rules have further spread the field.

[BDunnell]

We had plenty of car manufacturers in F1 until 2009, when many of them pulled out due to recession. At the moment we have four big ones (as engine manufacturers), and at least two of them seriously struggle to be competitive. We should not overestimate the value of F1 that big manufacturers would just join. For starters I don't see Audi in F1 any time soon. If they wanted to be in F1, they would already have joined. F1 is in dire state and does not attract sponsors easily, let alone team owners. Red Bull's commitment (with two teams) has been one of the few good things happening to F1.

Why would any new manufacturer enter any of the FIA world championships, except perhaps the WEC, at the moment? They're not going to win, so what's the point? Even entering the WEC brings little in the way of exposure, other than if you win Le Mans, and even then not much.

[Jag_Warrior]

Ferrari are the same kind of operation as McLaren which has been around since 1966 and Williams which has been around since 1977. Ferrari are unlike Honda, Mercedes, Renault, Toyota, Ford and BMW in that Ferrari aren't firstly a car company - they are a racing team which happens to sell cars.

I think that used to be true. And while I agree that Ferrari isn't like Mercedes, BMW, Toyota, Honda, Ford, Renault or even Porsche, in its approach to racing, the assumption that many of us had, that Ferrari was largely autonomous within FIAT... was shown to be quite incorrect. There are people who I knew who used to work for Chrysler. They thought they were going to be somewhat autonomous too. But like I said, they used to work for Chrysler. Like Signor di Montezemolo, they found out the hard way who the Big Cheese really was. The F1 team now has to carry its own water. And they have to prove their worth as a brand enhancer to the man in charge. Their value to Fiat/Marchionne now seems to be primarily what it can deliver as a brand, and the F1 team just feeds into that.