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  1. #11
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    WMC look like they are putting the N4 with the R4 cars.
    'Current Group N4 cars will be renamed as R4, in order to integrate them into the rally pyramid. This applies to all cars in the category worldwide.'

    IMHO - The car rules need to be for each country/ region as each place has a different set of economic circumstances and the cars will differ, concentrate on making what is used safe and keep a ceiling on places that can afford ultra high performance cars.
    Last edited by Zeakiwi; 13th October 2014 at 13:21.

  2. #12
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    I'm sure I read that Mitsubishi are dropping the Lancer Evo, which means only Subaru build a GpN4 car.
    WRC: On the long way to Recovery............
    Is there a better sound than that of Porsche engined Flat-6 ???

  3. #13
    Senior Member OldF's Avatar
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    What’s the price of a Maxi Rally car nowadays? In the thread http://www.motorsportforums.com/show...ly-Class/page2 the price was said to be 150 000 – 180 000 $ (119 000 – 142 000 €).

    Quote Originally Posted by vino_93 View Post
    For me, FIA just think to let people homologate the car they want in N4 category (with technical rules of course), as it's for RGT now.
    That’s my thoughts also and maybe it’s the only way to go if there’s soon no base cars to build a N4/R4 from. Of course teams like Prodrive and M-Sport would like to build these cars but there should be a possability also for privateers to build the cars locally with a passport without a need for a homologation.

    I had a look at http://www.rallycarsforsale.net/ (search “s2000”) and the price of S2000 cars is between 115 000 – 165 000 €.


    Quote Originally Posted by vino_93 View Post
    But today you need the agreement of the manufacturer ... and most of them don't care about N4, R3, R2, R1 ...
    Afaik RGT rules don’t need any manufacturer involvement.
    “Don’t eat the yellow snow” Frank Zappa

  4. #14
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    How suitable would something like a VW Golf R, Audi S3, BMW 1-Series X-Drive or Merc A-Class 4Matic be for R4-type regs? I know these cars are unlikely to materialise but they are the closest current-day thing to a Delta Integrale, Escort Cosworth, Mitsubishi Evo etc.

    Permanently lock the centre diffs on the VW, Audi and Merc (not sure of the 4WD system on the BMW), or switch the centre diff from a Haldex to something more appropriate for Rallying and all you'll need then is a 2.0T petrol engine (if not already fitted to one of the road cars).

  5. #15
    Armchair General Mirek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldF View Post
    I had a look at http://www.rallycarsforsale.net/ (search “s2000”) and the price of S2000 cars is between 115 000 – 165 000 €.
    S2000 are very cheap now but around 2010-2011 the top cars cost around 300 thousand Euro simply because there was nothing better available.

    Quote Originally Posted by OldF View Post
    Afaik RGT rules don’t need any manufacturer involvement.
    The way how it's done with RGT is impossible for cars built in big numbers. Imagine how many people would have to be hired by FIA to make a "mini-homologation" for every single car? The way for me is to homologate only properties (and only the "better" limit) to allow free choice of suppliers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack4688` View Post
    How suitable would something like a VW Golf R, Audi S3, BMW 1-Series X-Drive or Merc A-Class 4Matic be for R4-type regs? I know these cars are unlikely to materialise but they are the closest current-day thing to a Delta Integrale, Escort Cosworth, Mitsubishi Evo etc.
    Not very suitable. None of the cars You mentioned has central differential. They all use part-time 4WD transmission using Haldex clutch or similar systems. I don't think those can be used with success in rallying. At least not before the Evos and STIs disappear.
    Stupid is as stupid does. Forrest Gump

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mirek View Post
    Not very suitable. None of the cars You mentioned has central differential. They all use part-time 4WD transmission using Haldex clutch or similar systems. I don't think those can be used with success in rallying. At least not before the Evos and STIs disappear.
    That's why I suggested locking up the Haldex or replacing it with something more suitable

  7. #17
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    At what point does it become better to build a spaceframe from the ground rather than buy and road and start modifying it ?
    http://www.olsbergs.com/upload/docum..._Lites_eng.pdf . Make it so you can fit the panels, badges and engine of the manufacture silhouette you wish to represent.
    There was a bit shown during the turkey world rallycross tv screening. I think they mentioned 1000 hours for a supercar lite. How does that compare to r5 fiesta etc ?

  8. #18
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    The rally sport really needs a 4wd car which can be bought and maintained for normal budgets. The R5 is the starting class for 4wd nowadays. Way to expensive to start with 4wd rallying. Replacement for Group N is really necessary!!!

    But what to choose.

    How about an Audi A1 with a new 4wd setup. Would be nice to see Audi again.

  9. Likes: A FONDO (15th October 2014)
  10. #19
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    Suzuki Swift with additional transmission kit and 1,6 T. What a business for Monster!
    "Reis vas pät pat kaar vas kut"
    Tommi Mäkinen, back in the years...

  11. #20
    Senior Member OldF's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mirek View Post
    S2000 are very cheap now but around 2010-2011 the top cars cost around 300 thousand Euro simply because there was nothing better available
    That was my point, to show how much the prices of the S2000 cars have decreased.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mirek View Post
    The way how it's done with RGT is impossible for cars built in big numbers. Imagine how many people would have to be hired by FIA to make a "mini-homologation" for every single car? The way for me is to homologate only properties (and only the "better" limit) to allow free choice of suppliers.
    I was thinking to give that job to the local ASN . But anyway, the simpler it is the better.

    In Finland the V1600 class, which only need a passport, has been in use since end of 2005. So far more than 130 cars have got the passport of which about 50 is used in rallying. The one who has made the statistics (Ralf Pettersson) has put the V1600 cars in the group N category. By his statistics last year there was 150 group N cars in Finland, so the V1600 cars is 33% of the total amount.

    http://www.tenab.net/rafu/lkm2013.htm

    Imo one important factor is that the maintenance of the car can be done by yourself or by your team.

    Below is an example for a season budget (Vauhdin Maailma 11/2007) with a N4 car from 2007. The car is not included and in the article was said that top car in FCR in those days was about 100 000 €. As you can see the car is only a part of the game. Note that the rallies in FCR is mostly one day rallies.

    Rallying costs:
    Entry fees 3200 € (á 400 €. 1 two day rally, 6 one day rally)
    Accommodations 2340 € (á 90 € * 26)
    Travelling 560 € (á 80 € * 7)
    Food (á 120 € * 7)
    Racing fuel / litre 6,20 € * 1000 l = 6200 €
    Diesel (for transporting of the car etc.) á 100 € * 7 = 700 €
    Tyres, winter 345 € * 30 = 10350 €
    Tyres, summer 245 € * 30 = 7350 €
    Insurance 2500 € * 7 = 17500 €
    Accessories, spare parts etc. 2500 €
    Total = 51540 € (64,7 %)

    Testing costs:
    Racing fuel 6,20 € * 400 = 2480 €
    Tyres 1500 € (Usually with used tyres)
    Set up work, lunch, payment for test road, permission fee etc.
    Total = 7480 € (9,4 %)

    General expenses:
    Traffic + transporting insurance 750 €
    Tools and small accessories 2500 €
    Clothes 500 €
    Ads + marketing materials 1500 €
    Total = 6750 € (8,5 %)

    Maintenance costs:
    Rally-specific costs 350 € * 7 = 2450 € (wear parts, cost doesn’t include own work)
    Seasonal maintenance 1: 3500 € (Maintenance of transmission, dampers and turbo. Cost doesn’t include own work)
    Seasonal maintenance 2: 6500 € (Maintenance of engine, transmission, dampers and turbo. Cost doesn’t include own work)
    Repair of equipments etc. 1500 € (Cost doesn’t include own work)
    Total = 13950 € (17,5 %)

    Total season costs = 79720 €

    Income:
    Co-operation agreements (as they called it): 2 * > 10000 €, 2 * 5000 – 10000 €, 2 * 2000 – 5000 €, 10 * < 2000 € per season.
    Customer events, 5 events: 5500 €
    VIP events, 4 events: 6000 €
    Sales (mostly used tyres): 4500 €
    Service sales: 3500 €
    Other incomes: 1500 €
    Total = 63000 €

    Sum total = -16720 €
    “Don’t eat the yellow snow” Frank Zappa

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