New R4 Car - Think Tank

[Mirek]

Some of our South-American members wrote that the price of Maxi Rally cars was near 200 thousand Euro and that the main advantage was that they were not subject of import-duty in Argentina. What's the benefit of using such non-FIA car imported from the opposite side of the globe?

[Co-driven]

On the other thread, I said I thought it was around 200k dollars, not euros.

And one reason I think is the running costs. What I know, for example from the R5 cars in Paraguay is that there is a need of bringing from Europe an engineer for each race. Besides that, whenever there is there need to rebuild engine and gearbox, those parts need to be shipped to Europe. On the other hand, I think that those Maxi Rally cars don't need that kind of thing, the team itself can do the maintenance.

[Mirek]

Sorry for the mistake I did with the currency. Still I don't se the benefits. I believe it's cheaper to run Maxi-rally car than R5 (although I'm pretty sure it's cheaper to run R5 in Europe where there are hundreds of them than in Argentina) but there is really big disadvantage that those cars are not allowed in FIA events in Europe. Does it worth to sacrifice the FIA "compatibility" for "somewhat cheaper car"? Maybe somebody can clearly say yes and give us clear reasoning.

[Co-driven]

Yes, I agree with you. Running those cars in South America can be a benefit, especially considering that they are allowed in Rally Argentina.

But I also can't see any special reason for them to be used on Europe. Maybe their cost is below the 150k-200k dollars I said or the running cost is, for some reason, a lot lower than that of a R5 car.

[Rally Power]

Sorry for the mistake I did with the currency. Still I don't se the benefits. I believe it's cheaper to run Maxi-rally car than R5 (although I'm pretty sure it's cheaper to run R5 in Europe where there are hundreds of them than in Argentina) but there is really big disadvantage that those cars are not allowed in FIA events in Europe. Does it worth to sacrifice the FIA "compatibility" for "somewhat cheaper car"? Maybe somebody can clearly say yes and give us clear reasoning.

First of all: with this new N5 spanish rules, spanish tuners will have the opportunity to build 4wd rally cars locally. As N5 rules are pretty much the same as MR, every team or driver can import MR's cars from Argentina but they'll also can buy them from spanish tuners (AR Vidal with the Swift is the first, but there are others capable rally tuners in spain and it's not hard to believe that in a short term several other cars will appear).

Co-driven's 150k to 200k dollars price estimation for MR cars seems a bit large, but even considering a 200k price, MR cars would cost around 180.000€. That's 50.000€ less than a Fabia R5 (gravel spec/no taxes). It's a lot, and probably many european N4 drivers would be tented to buy N5/MR's, like most south american drivers were. Also, like in MR rules, N5 cars are ment to be controlled spec cars. They use the same engine, transmission, brakes, suspension, etc. That really helps to cut down running costs.

There's another big advantage: with FIA restricted homologation system, many importers can't have rally programs in their countries because very few brands have FIA homologated cars (compared to Gr.N/A days, the number of Gr.R homologations it's ridiculous). With a liberal system like N5/MR, there's space for larger brands involvement, like already seen in South America. Spreading tuners choice (from nowadays half a dozen manus tuners) will also help private teams and drivers to have a larger and cheaper choice of 4wd rally cars.

On N5 lack of FIA international events status: it may be only a question of time...(and for the large majority of european MR/N5 potencial costumers that's not a real issue, as long local ASN's accepts them in their national champs).

PS: I'm also a fan of R5 cars (just critic on their overprice), but FIA homologation system it's too limited and doesn't helped rallying. MR/N5 and others solutions must be understood as complementary and benefic for the sport.

[br21]

In my opinion lack of international homologation for those N5/MR cars is a big issue and a big problem for many drivers. 50k euros difference is not that huge, if someone can afford to buy and run car for 180k euros, highly possible he can afford those 50k more. Difference in running costs of those cars cannot be that big, maybe only in engine, but simply I'm not familiar with MR cars engines, so I don't know. But transmissions for sure similar, also in R5 case no need to have manufacturer engineer on events like someone mentioned before.
Also those MR cars might be good and already developed to some level on gravel, but tarmac is completely different story and many countries in Europe have events mainly on tarmac.

[Sulland]

https://translate.google.no/translat...ategoria-n5%2F

N5 looks like a good option to me.
Both for tuning firms and drivers in national series.

And if nations could cooperate on rules, a healty 2.nd hand market could evolve!

[Sulland]

In my opinion lack of international homologation for those N5/MR cars is a big issue and a big problem for many drivers. 50k euros difference is not that huge, if someone can afford to buy and run car for 180k euros, highly possible he can afford those 50k more. Difference in running costs of those cars cannot be that big, maybe only in engine, but simply I'm not familiar with MR cars engines, so I don't know. But transmissions for sure similar, also in R5 case no need to have manufacturer engineer on events like someone mentioned before.
Also those MR cars might be good and already developed to some level on gravel, but tarmac is completely different story and many countries in Europe have events mainly on tarmac.

50k euro is a lot of money for a privateer. You could almost buy a second hand N4, and do a complete Norwegian Championship for that amount!!

[Mirek]

Second hand N4 is unable to challenge the R5. If You compare with R5 You must compare option with similar performance. Several years a go a used Punto S2000 cost 1/4 of new Fabia S2000 and actually less than a good N4 car. Still nobody was buying the Puntos but everybody was going to spend more for a competitive package. It doesn't matter that much if You spend 230 or 180 thousand Euro. Both is a lot of money and You think twice before You throw them out of the window. It's a sport tool and as such the primary thing is performance. If You buy the car just for fun, ok, but how many of rally drivers have no ambitions?

Maybe the Maxi rally cars can be competitive against R5 (although I doubt that). Still why not to buy second-hand Fiesta R5 for the same price instead? Maybe it's more expensive to run but You can take part in international events with it, You have a proper comparison with international drivers, You have a kind of performance and service guarantee and one day You can sell it to anywhere.

I understand the reasoning with giving an option to take part to the importer teams which have no homologated cars of their make. I'm not sure such motivation will work though. Maybe it's different in Spain but here the dealers are not particularly interested in rallying if they are not driven in it by the manufacturer itself.

Anyway I agree that the current homologation system is far from being ideal. I would also welcome more freedom to build own cars but it shall be taken as a systematic approach by FIA. Playing on own national sandpit has never helped the sport in global.

[Sulland]

I agree with you on what you are saying Mirek, but I think we are writing past eachother.
I am now talking of a guy that are doing this either for fun, or as his first 4wd car, to be used in a national series, not in ERC, WRC.
Many drivers used, and are using N4 cars for this due to cost. But those cars are getting old, and national series need a modern, cheap option.
The point is not to match the speed of a top notch R5, since they will be in different classes.

Second hand N4 is unable to challenge the R5. If You compare with R5 You must compare option with similar performance. Several years a go a used Punto S2000 cost 1/4 of new Fabia S2000 and actually less than a good N4 car. Still nobody was buying the Puntos but everybody was going to spend more for a competitive package. It doesn't matter that much if You spend 230 or 180 thousand Euro. Both is a lot of money and You think twice before You throw them out of the window. It's a sport tool and as such the primary thing is performance. If You buy the car just for fun, ok, but how many of rally drivers have no ambitions?

Maybe the Maxi rally cars can be competitive against R5 (although I doubt that). Still why not to buy second-hand Fiesta R5 for the same price instead? Maybe it's more expensive to run but You can take part in international events with it, You have a proper comparison with international drivers, You have a kind of performance and service guarantee and one day You can sell it to anywhere.

I understand the reasoning with giving an option to take part to the importer teams which have no homologated cars of their make. I'm not sure such motivation will work though. Maybe it's different in Spain but here the dealers are not particularly interested in rallying if they are not driven in it by the manufacturer itself.

Anyway I agree that the current homologation system is far from being ideal. I would also welcome more freedom to build own cars but it shall be taken as a systematic approach by FIA. Playing on own national sandpit has never helped the sport in global.