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  1. #371
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    Evolve press release is more dreaming than reality. For sure not such car in first half of 2018.

  2. Likes: Andre Oliveira (27th December 2017),Mirek (27th December 2017),pantealex (27th December 2017)
  3. #372
    Senior Member Rally Power's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarek Z View Post
    Yes, Toyota Yaris R4 with Oreca’s R4 kit is being built by Evolve Motorsport in Warsaw. More about it here:http://www.evolve-motorsport.com/yarisr4evolve/
    The Evolve Yaris looks great!

    One of the positive things of R4 is allowing private tuners to be more involved in rallying; through them new brands and models will hit the stages. Since Gr.R introduction the sport has lived under the monopoly of manus official tuners, shrinking rally cars diversity and inflating their prices; it’s time for a change and R4 can be the start of it. Fingers crossed!
    Rally addict since 1982

  4. #373
    Senior Member Mirek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rally Power View Post
    One of the positive things of R4 is allowing private tuners to be more involved in rallying; through them new brands and models will hit the stages. Since Gr.R introduction the sport has lived under the monopoly of manus official tuners, shrinking rally cars diversity and inflating their prices; it’s time for a change and R4 can be the start of it. Fingers crossed!
    There were only two manufacturers involved in N4 which was the top class before introducing S2000 class. There were nine manufacturers in S2000 class (some only minor) and now there are five R5 manufacturers with two more coming in 2018. How is that shrinking diversity?

    The prices of S2000 were indeed much higher than N4 but compared to the price level at S2000 popularity peek the R5 prices of today are reasonably lower (despite being naturally still way higher than N4). The fact is that there has been no inflation of prices in last couple of years at the top regional level. The costs were highest at around year 2011 not now.
    Stupid is as stupid does. Forrest Gump

  5. Likes: pantealex (29th December 2017)
  6. #374
    Senior Member Rally Power's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mirek View Post
    There were only two manufacturers involved in N4 which was the top class before introducing S2000 class. There were nine manufacturers in S2000 class (some only minor) and now there are five R5 manufacturers with two more coming in 2018. How is that shrinking diversity?
    The prices of S2000 were indeed much higher than N4 but compared to the price level at S2000 popularity peek the R5 prices of today are reasonably lower (despite being naturally still way higher than N4). The fact is that there has been no inflation of prices in last couple of years at the top regional level. The costs were highest at around year 2011 not now.
    You’re mentioning a very specific case, when N4 homologations become rare, but the sport was always much more than a specific case. The difference of available models homologated in Gr.N/A (from N1 to A8) in any time of the 80’s or 90’s (or previously during Gr.1 to 4 era) and those currently homologated in R1, R2, R3 or R5 is gigantic and cannot be denied. Many of those times homologations were developed by private tuners, with manus permission.

    Having more rally models and brands available is a progress and there should be room for private tuners alongside manus motorsport divisions. That’s what R4 is bringing back.
    Rally addict since 1982

  7. #375
    Senior Member Mirek's Avatar
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    Sorry but there is no sense in looking 30 years or more back. Everything is completely different now starting from the very simple fact that in those days there were plenty of independent relatively small manufacturers whereas today they are nearly all joined in several gigantic corporations.

    In that regard 9 S2000 manufacturers and 7 R5 manufacturers is huge success and it helps nothing to claim the opposite. To make things better You have to see what is good and what works not dreaming about something which was thirty years a go.
    Stupid is as stupid does. Forrest Gump

  8. Likes: pantealex (29th December 2017)
  9. #376
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mirek View Post
    Sorry but there is no sense in looking 30 years or more back. Everything is completely different now starting from the very simple fact that in those days there were plenty of independent relatively small manufacturers whereas today they are nearly all joined in several gigantic corporations.

    In that regard 9 S2000 manufacturers and 7 R5 manufacturers is huge success and it helps nothing to claim the opposite. To make things better You have to see what is good and what works not dreaming about something which was thirty years a go.
    The only thing I found a bit stupid in this is that for swap an "Oreca engine" into a car FIA says it's alright, but if you do everything by the book using manufacter parts and engine, FIA says you cannot homologate without the Manufacter permission (i.e. Opel and Mitsubishi).

    We had 11 different manufacters in S2000, even if only 3/4 of them were any good, and we could had 10 manufacters or cars at least in R5 now if not for this stupid rule!
    Last edited by TheFlyingTuga; 29th December 2017 at 06:36.

  10. #377
    Senior Member Mirek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheFlyingTuga View Post
    The only thing I found a bit stupid in this is that for swap an "Oreca engine" into a car FIA says it's alright, but if you do everything by the book using manufacter parts and engine, FIA says you cannot homologate without the Manufacter permission (i.e. Opel and Mitsubishi).
    You mix two different categories which were created in different time (approximately 5 years between introduction of both classes). It's not fair to mix conditions in one sentence

    Quote Originally Posted by TheFlyingTuga View Post
    We had 11 different manufacters in S2000, even if only 3/4 of them were any good, and we could had 10 manufacters or cars at least in R5 now if not for this stupid rule!
    Thanks for correction but which 11? Abarth, Peugeot, Škoda, Ford, Citroën (RRC), Proton, VW, Toyota, Opel, MG and 11th?
    Last edited by Mirek; 29th December 2017 at 12:43.
    Stupid is as stupid does. Forrest Gump

  11. #378
    Senior Member PLuto's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mirek View Post
    Thanks for correction but which 11? Abarth, Peugeot, Škoda, Ford, Citroën (RRC), Proton, VW, Toyota, Opel, MG and 11th?
    If you are counting also RRC, in that case you forgot Mini.

  12. Likes: Mirek (29th December 2017)
  13. #379
    Senior Member Rally Power's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mirek View Post
    Sorry but there is no sense in looking 30 years or more back. Everything is completely different now starting from the very simple fact that in those days there were plenty of independent relatively small manufacturers whereas today they are nearly all joined in several gigantic corporations.
    In that regard 9 S2000 manufacturers and 7 R5 manufacturers is huge success and it helps nothing to claim the opposite. To make things better You have to see what is good and what works not dreaming about something which was thirty years a go.
    We can always learn from the past, mate. R5 is a success and that’s great for the sport but N4 wasn’t properly replaced, R1 and R3 have failed and R2 is stagnated. Currently there are fewer models available in the combined R1/R2/R3 range than in R5; that’s a clear sign of how a manu centered regulation isn’t adjusted to the sport reality.

    Besides, despite all the global changes in the car market, current rally manus (with Hyundai’s exception) were already involved in the sport from a long time, meaning rally hasn’t been able to attract new brands.

    With R5 prices inevitably going through the roof (how much will a full spec Polo cost?), there’s room for a lower budget 4wd category like R4, provided by private tuners with privateers costumers in mind. A light R2 class is also needed, probably using R4 concept: private tuners developed silhouette cars, using mandatory kits.

    As top teams and drivers will always use top rally cars, having lower budget classes available won’t hurt the sport, on the contrary, it’ll allow more privateers to get in and run alongside top competitors; clearly, a win-win situation.
    Last edited by Rally Power; 29th December 2017 at 14:29.
    Rally addict since 1982

  14. Likes: Daniel Popov (29th December 2017)
  15. #380
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rally Power View Post
    A light R2 class is also needed, probably using R4 concept: private tuners developed silhouette cars, using mandatory kits.
    A spec R2 isn't a good option either tbh, what i want is lower tech like removal of sequential shift

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