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  1. #331
    Senior Member Rally Power's Avatar
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    http://www.oreca.com/wp-content/uplo...compressed.pdf

    On their last brochure, Oreca estimates the R4 price between 166.000€ and 181.000€ (according to current usd/eur rate; pages 24/25). That value comprises assembly work costs. The same doc indicates R4 will tend to cost less 20% than a new R5 and exploitations costs are expected to be 35 to 40% lower, like br21 mentioned.

    The 15k price gap isn’t explained, but one can guess that 181k is the price Oreca expects top tuners will sell complete cars to costumers.

    Anyway, R4 is a needed category and hopefully it’ll bring a new and exciting variety of brands and models to rally. Unfortunately, the base kit inflated price and having just one worldwide supplier can jeopardy R4 future. Time will tell.
    Last edited by Rally Power; 23rd October 2017 at 15:48.
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  2. #332
    Armchair General Mirek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rally Power View Post
    Anyway, R4 is a needed category...
    Is it? I'm not sure about that. I see R5 class living a successful and healthy live everyhere and I am not sure if R4 with the expected price and running cost can succeed because it is not a top a tier class in any championship and as such it looks too expensive to me. I'm afraid that it will only parazitize on the R5 class, i.e. making number of R5 cars slightly lower (by taking some money available in the sport away) while not adding anything significant to any championship.
    Stupid is as stupid does. Forrest Gump

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  4. #333
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mirek View Post
    Is it? I'm not sure about that. I see R5 class living a successful and healthy live everyhere and I am not sure if R4 with the expected price and running cost can succeed because it is not a top a tier class in any championship and as such it looks too expensive to me. I'm afraid that it will only parazitize on the R5 class, i.e. making number of R5 cars slightly lower (by taking some money available in the sport away) while not adding anything significant to any championship.
    Some doesn't need R4, some need them, and some desperately need that.

    One more thing is R5 are not avaliable/affordable in some countries
    Last edited by mArvAlcao17; 23rd October 2017 at 07:19.

  5. #334
    Senior Member Sulland's Avatar
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    Have edited my post.
    The Fiesta R5 I meant was a second hand one. You can get a Fiesta R5 Evo for that, but maybe not an Evo 2.
    Still for a national title that might be sufficiant.
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  6. #335
    Senior Member Rally Power's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mirek View Post
    Is it? I'm not sure about that. I see R5 class living a successful and healthy live everyhere and I am not sure if R4 with the expected price and running cost can succeed because it is not a top a tier class in any championship and as such it looks too expensive to me. I'm afraid that it will only parazitize on the R5 class, i.e. making number of R5 cars slightly lower (by taking some money available in the sport away) while not adding anything significant to any championship.
    I remember you weren’t sure about having ’17 WRC cars and guess what; they’re the best thing it happened to WRC for ages...

    The need for a 4wd entry class has been undisputed. Through R4 many importers and big dealers of brands currently not involved in rally will get the chance to join the sport, while a lot of privateers will be able to replace their aging Evo’s and Impreza’s with a interesting alternative to the used R5’s market, which in many cases wasn’t really an alternative due to R5 running costs.

    To base a new category on a mandatory mechanical kit may eventually shock the purists, but it makes sense having in mind private tuners will have a major role on the class development and R4 isn’t supposed to be a leading category in national or international series.

    For sure there are still some reasonable doubts on R4 future, mainly due to FIA’s inability to fix a fair price for the kit (108k seems too much for what you get) and having a single worldwide supplier (which can raise availability and even reliability issues) but, hopefully, they won’t stop R4 from being a success and provide a larger range of exciting rally cars. Fingers crossed!
    Rally addict since 1982

  7. #336
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    Biggest issue for me is the single supplier, although this allows consistency of things like safety aspects (hopefully) and scrutineering, it does nothing to increase competition and drive costs down. I just hope this isn't another RRC class that will fizzle out when the FIA comes up with another new shiny idea.

  8. #337
    Armchair General Mirek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rally Power View Post
    I remember you weren’t sure about having ’17 WRC cars and guess what; they’re the best thing it happened to WRC for ages...
    The battle between the manufacturers is indeed good but every time a new rules come the initial seasons are good. We have to wait few more years to judge properly. Anyway there are not only pros. The new cars are extremely difficult to run for privateers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rally Power View Post
    The need for a 4wd entry class has been undisputed. Through R4 many importers and big dealers of brands currently not involved in rally will get the chance to join the sport, while a lot of privateers will be able to replace their aging Evo’s and Impreza’s with a interesting alternative to the used R5’s market, which in many cases wasn’t really an alternative due to R5 running costs.
    With the announced price and running cost the R4 can't be called an entry class at all - and they aren't an N4 replacement either (most of the teams running N4 can't run R4 for the same money). Also the argument with new importers being able to take part isn't fully valid. If the R4 were top tier class it would but I doubt many importers are interested in placing reasonable money in a project which can bring only class victories moreover in national events. Those have very low marketing value and don't justify investments.

    Also - for what is an entry 4WD class needed? I can see that the way R2 -> R5 works very fine, can't You?

    I understand the need of such class in some countries where R4 would basically replace (largely non-existent) R5 not run under them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rally Power View Post
    To base a new category on a mandatory mechanical kit may eventually shock the purists, but it makes sense having in mind private tuners will have a major role on the class development and R4 isn’t supposed to be a leading category in national or international series.
    I have nothing against the concept itself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rally Power View Post
    For sure there are still some reasonable doubts on R4 future, mainly due to FIA’s inability to fix a fair price for the kit (108k seems too much for what you get) and having a single worldwide supplier (which can raise availability and even reliability issues) but, hopefully, they won’t stop R4 from being a success and provide a larger range of exciting rally cars. Fingers crossed!
    Yes, there's a hope, I agree. Time will tell.
    Last edited by Mirek; 23rd October 2017 at 16:44.
    Stupid is as stupid does. Forrest Gump

  9. #338
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rally Power View Post
    I remember you weren’t sure about having ’17 WRC cars and guess what; they’re the best thing it happened to WRC for ages...
    It's shame that the privateers are no longer able to run the car purely by themselves. But on the cost side, so yeah.

  10. #339
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sal the 2nd View Post
    Biggest issue for me is the single supplier, although this allows consistency of things like safety aspects (hopefully) and scrutineering, it does nothing to increase competition and drive costs down. I just hope this isn't another RRC class that will fizzle out when the FIA comes up with another new shiny idea.
    IMO there should be some freedom in certain parts like engine (tbh i'm not sure it would worked on this one) or simpler transmission (manual H shift, anyone?). No need for the sequential because it's already on R5 - but R2&R3 cars are sequential....

  11. #340
    Senior Member Rally Power's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mirek View Post
    With the announced price and running cost the R4 can't be called an entry class at all - and they aren't an N4 replacement either (most of the teams running N4 can't run R4 for the same money). Also the argument with new importers being able to take part isn't fully valid. If the R4 were top tier class it would but I doubt many importers are interested in placing reasonable money in a project which can bring only class victories moreover in national events. Those have very low marketing value and don't justify investments.
    To win overall isn’t the only motivation for manus. Ford is spending millions on the LM/WEC program and they’re only fighting for a class win at the back of the field. It’s not hard to believe that brands with no intention to develop R5 or WRC cars will allow their importers to enter into R4, as Renault and Suzuki Spain are already doing with N5 (a sort of pre R4).

    Privateers may find R4 price excessive, but running costs are much lower regarding R5, which can be decisive on their car choices. Besides, to be fighting for a R4 class win can become more attractive to 2nd level teams than struggling to get into top 10 with a R5 that they can hardly maintain.

    I agree R4 isn’t the cheap 4wd entry class we were hoping for; still it has lots of potential and it’ll, hopefully, help our sport to grow. That’s what mostly matters.
    Rally addict since 1982

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