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  1. #31
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    Yep. Hill made a bad move, but it was just a bad move. He did not try to punt Schumacher out of the lead, and he ruined his own race as well. You can't compare that to wrecking someone on purpose when the championship is on the line. This is F1, not nascar.

    I don't know how people can view an accident video over and over and still come to different conclusions as to what happened, but this is how it is. I don't believe anyone ever claimed that Hill took aim on Schumacher, but many people believe the reversed happened at Adelaide, and this was underlined by what happened later at Jerez in 97.

    "Deliberate but instinctual."
    I remember that Schumacher fans were militant in his defense after Jerez, and were unashamed even after he admitted he did it on purpose. It became even more comical when some of these fans would not change their stance even after Schumacher admitted turning into Villeneuve was "deliberate, but instinctual." There are still Schumacher fans who will argue Schumacher did nothing wrong at Jerez, or that Villeneuve was making a suicide pass. The truth is, Schumacher admitted it was deliberate, and he was excluded from the 97 championship as a result, not that he cared about a second place finish or anything.

    Those of us who viewed Adelaide without a sense of Schumacher wonderment knew the collision was coming the moment Villeneuve swung out to pass, but this was because of what happened the last time Schumacher was involved in a championship moment.

    See, After Jerez, it is not unfair to view Adelaide 94 as the beginning of a pattern.

    If you are going to throw any championship out, I think it has to be 94. Regardless of what led up to it, the championship was determined by the moment when the guy who had the most to gain by crashing his opponent crashed his opponent. You can say it was an "incident," but later Jerez suggests these "incidents" constitute a pattern.

    At Hocklenheim, there was the Benetton fuel filter cheating scandal, which was proven, and yet the FIA did nothing. Verstappen's Benetton burst into flames and it was a very ugly incident we are lucky did not get out of control. Funny that the FIA did hardly anything to them, when they were caught so blatantly cheating. Remembering the draconian penalty Tyrell got for cheating on their refuelling system, the slap on the wrist Benetton got was shamefully lenient. If Tyrell was precedent, Benetton should have been tossed out of the championship on the spot.

    The FIA did nothing to help themselves considering that they essentially ignored Benetton cheating on the refueling system, then DQing Schumacher for a plank violation after it was damaged driving over a curb. Essentially they let a deliberate cheat (Hockenhiem and maybe every race before that) slide, and then they nail Schumacher and toss his Spa win out on a technicality when they could have very easily said it was accident damage and let a good win stand.

    On top of the dirty driving, there were many other incidents that season which make 1994 a truly rotten season. There were so many stories about the Benetton traction control system, and the Benetton launch control system. It's too lengthy to go into all of it, but there was still plenty of talk and suspicion about it. Maybe it was just that, but even Senna said there was something funny about that car.

    Some minds believe the FIA came down so hard on Benetton because they knew the car was illegal but could not prove it. Why else would they create such a stink over Schumacher being out of position on the formation lap, DQ him from the race and then built that into another two race suspension? That may have been the biggest farce of the year.

    About the only person who drove a clean season and stayed out of all the scandals was Hill, but in the end even he got caught up in it. There was so much underhanded stuff going on from all directions that '94 is truly a year that should be completely stricken from the record books.


    IMHO, but of course.
    Last edited by Doc Austin; 20th October 2014 at 19:03.

  2. #32
    Senior Member Rollo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Austin View Post
    If you are going to throw any championship out, I think it has to be 94. Regardless of what led up to it, the championship was determined by the moment when the guy who had the most to gain by crashing his opponent crashed his opponent. You can say it was an "incident," but later Jerez suggests these "incidents" constitute a pattern.
    Patterns are one thing but this is where I head back to this comment:

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Austin View Post
    However, if you want to throw out 1990, you also have to throw out 1989 when Prost clearly turned into Senna at Suzuka and initiated the collision.
    This looks weird in the light of this:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=49qF32Pazwc

    You can talk about something being "deliberate but instinctual" all you like but not even 1994 or 1997 were premeditated before the race began.
    The Old Republic was a stupidly run organisation which deserved to be taken over. All Hail Palpatine!

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rollo View Post

    This looks weird in the light of this:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=49qF32Pazwc
    Perhaps you have misunderstood me. I did not approve of what Senna did to Prost any more than I approved of what Prost did to Senna. Of course, Prost was just playing to the rules Senna laid down at Portugal..... no rules, that is. Both incidents were disgraceful. Both championships should be tossed out if we want a moral championship.

    You can talk about something being "deliberate but instinctual" all you like but not even 1994 or 1997 were premeditated before the race began.
    I'de rather race against guys who's instinct are to avoid a collision. Instinctual means you will do it just about every time. That, my friend, is what constitutes "a pattern." I think the only reason we didn't see Schumancer wreck more opponents on purpose is because he was only in two title deciding moments.

    The only other time one of Schumacher's championships came down to the last race (Again at Suzuka), he pushed Hakkinen all the way onto the pit road on the start (from the complete opposite side of the road), but Hakkinen knew Schumacher was going to do it, because it was part of the pattern, and he avoided the collision by backing off, handing Schumacher the championship. I don't remember the year, but that's another championship that should be stripped while we are at it.

    So, to be clear, if crashing opponents on purpose is a good reason to declare a championship immoral, 89 and 90 are good years to throw out, but so is 1994.
    Last edited by Doc Austin; 22nd October 2014 at 17:44.

  4. #34
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    Go to 2:00 of this video and there is an overhead shopt of Prost turning into Senna. You can see that the way Prost's car is aimed, he would have gone off the road on the right side well before he even got to the corner, except Senna was there. There is also video from Prost's car I had never seen before, and that footage only confirms what I already knew: Prost took Senna out on purpose.

    Perhaps it's best to watch the video and make up your own minds.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ouf1ybLjaik#t=133

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