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  1. #1
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    Chase Tweak That I Would Like

    This year's rules for The Chase have really enhanced it quite a bit. I like the idea of "winning" being emphasized, but on the other hand, I would like that emphasis to be strengthened.

    What I would like to see is The Chase field be reduced to just 10 drivers. Then eliminate 2 after the first three races, 2 more after the next three races, 2 more after the next three races, and then have the remaining 4 decide the championship in the last race (as they do currently). Why change it from 16 drivers to 10? It would eliminate the feeling that if you win just one race, you're in The Chase. Dale Earnhardt, Jr. kept saying all weekend that he felt like he'd been on vacation since the Daytona 500. I just think it would be better if winning one race was seen as just the first step in ensuring your place in The Chase.

    Out of the top 10 in this year's Chase, the Busch Brothers and Denny Hamlin had only one win, but Kahne, Almirola, and Allmendinger all had one win too and would not have made The Chase under what I propose in my tweak.

    I just would like it better if a driver didn't feel comfortable about being in The Chase until he had won two or three races.

  2. #2
    Admin slorydn1's Avatar
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    Hasn't Bri-Bri tweaked enough already? There have been so many changes since 2003 that its impossible to make any sort of historical comparisons anymore.

    I just don't understand this instant gratification world we live in any more, I guess.

    Where is it written that we must be blessed with a thrilling down to the wire Championship fight every year? What made 1992 so special was that it occurred naturally, it wasn't manufactured.

    Every year since 2004 the Chase was shown to be the joke that it is, so instead of admitting their mistake, NASCAR tweaked it further, and turned it to even more of joke, which brought further tweaks which brought us to where we are. A winner take the whole season in the last race scenario, but only, they don't have to win, just finish better than the 3 other drivers they are up against in that 1 race. Several times in the Chase era, the season long points battle ended up being more interesting than the Chase points battle, really with 2011 being the only outlier

    NASCAR has lost sight of the fact that racing is NOT a stick and ball sport. In stick and ball sports Team A plays Team B, Team C plays Team D (etc) for however many games their regular season is, then based on their seeding in the conference, league (etc), play each other again,winner goes on, loser goes home not to be seen again until next year.

    Racing is about (insert relevant field size here) drivers getting together and racing each and every round from the season opener until the last race, wherever that may be. The Championship is just one very large race in and of itself, each individual race figuratively being a single "lap" in that very long race. Whoever has the most points at the end of that very long race, wins. That's the way it should be-every race is important in and of itself.



    People who love to argue against me like to say "Well I guess you don't like football very much then, do you?"

    They couldn't be any more wrong, I love NFL football, for different reasons. Their road to the championship fits their game. This whole Chase concept, including its latest iteration which is truly a farce, just doesn't fit what racing is.

    Case in point-I just finished a Chase "simulation" for this year,something I have done every year since 2008 and it usually comes close if not spot on every year. My simulation is very simplistic. I take the spring race at all the chase tracks and use the finishing order and just plug them in to the 8 tracks that the chase race will be the second race of the year. For Chicago and Homestead I use the finishing order from last years races there. Once the 10,12,now 16 Chase drivers are finalized at Richmond I just plug in their finishes and voila, simulation complete.


    Have you watched TV lately and seen how every major outlet is wringing their hands about how Jimmie Johnson is toast and what's wrong with him? The simulation shows he will EASILY make the final 4. Jeff Gordon will be there,and so will Kevin Harvick and Kyle Busch. I hate to base a whole championship sim on LAST years race, but a 7th place finish by Kyle Busch wins him the 2014 Farce according to it. It was ok to do when it was just one of the 10 Chase races for using as part of the sim so I'm not predicting that he wins the whole thing, but I do stand by the sims prediction of the Final 4...so what does that mean? You decide that.

    What tweak would I like to see? I'd like them to tweak the whole Chase concept into the nearest garbage can and make each race 1/36th of the season, and then implement a points system similar to the FIA 25 down to 1 for the top 10 which makes winning more important, and makes an 11th place finish just as irrelevant as a 43rd place finish. Then, if someone is running away with it, too bad, the other teams will have to man up and claw to make it better next year. Put it back on the teams to make us happy with a close finish, and stop trying to manufacture excitement. Every attempt NASCAR has made at manufacturing that excitement so far has had that WWE feel to it.
    #4 2014 Sprint Cup Champion, 2007 Daytona 500,2003 Brickyard 400,2x Coke 600,2014 Southern 500 Champ: 962 starts,90 wins, 345 T5s, 544 T10s, 44 poles, 2x NNS champ

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by slorydn1 View Post
    Hasn't Bri-Bri tweaked enough already?
    What is a "Bri Bri"?

    Quote Originally Posted by slorydn1 View Post
    What made 1992 so special was that it occurred naturally, it wasn't manufactured.
    1992 was "manufactured". All NASCAR (and other racing) championship systems are made by human beings, none of them are phenomenona of nature, such as gravity, or ordained by some diety. So I don't understand claiming one championship system to be superior to others.

    And for every "1992", there are other years where the championship was decided 2 races before the end of the season and was a foregone conclusion 3 races before that.

    Quote Originally Posted by slorydn1 View Post
    Every year since 2004 the Chase was shown to be the joke that it is,
    That's your opinion. Others feel differently. I happen to like The Chase.

    Quote Originally Posted by slorydn1 View Post
    Racing is about (insert relevant field size here) drivers getting together and racing each and every round from the season opener until the last race, wherever that may be. The Championship is just one very large race in and of itself, each individual race figuratively being a single "lap" in that very long race. Whoever has the most points at the end of that very long race, wins. That's the way it should be-every race is important in and of itself.
    Again, your opinion.

    Quote Originally Posted by slorydn1 View Post
    What tweak would I like to see? I'd like them to tweak the whole Chase concept into the nearest garbage can and make each race 1/36th of the season, and then implement a points system similar to the FIA 25 down to 1 for the top 10 which makes winning more important, and makes an 11th place finish just as irrelevant as a 43rd place finish.
    Would you also include F1's doubling of the points awarded in the final race?
    Last edited by Brierley; 9th September 2014 at 04:24.

  4. #4
    Admin slorydn1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brierley View Post
    What is a "Bri Bri"?
    http://www.motorsportforums.com/show...ings-2001-2013

    Post #4, 3rd paragraph down explains that for our younger members who haven't been around long.



    Quote Originally Posted by Brierley View Post
    1992 was "manufactured". All NASCAR (and other racing) championship systems are made by human beings, none of them are phenomenona of nature, such as gravity, or ordained by some diety. So I don't understand claiming one championship system to be superior to others.
    Ok, I'll play your game. How about Overly Manufactured. Is that better? 1992 played out over an entire season, and they got to the final race without some cockamamie resetting of the points 10 races before the end of the season just to "tighten things up". That, and the fact that Elliott and Kulwicki kept trading the lead back and forth until Kulwicki led the most laps wich ultimately gave him a 10 point championship win in a system where 180 points was on offer every race. Wow, that was awesome! The fact that it took a whole season to get there made it all the more special.



    Quote Originally Posted by Brierley View Post
    And for every "1992", there are other years where the championship was decided 2 races before the end of the season and was a foregone conclusion 3 races before that.
    I couldn't agree with you more there. And yes there were those of us who were watching events unfold back in the late 90's and early 2000's who realized that the Latford points system was weighted maybe just a bit too much on the consistency side of the ledger and not enough on the wins. I myself had purposed bumping the winners points from 185 to 200 and then adding the laps led bonuses, so 205 for a win, 210 for a win and the most laps. Some wanted even more than that. I wish that old iteration of the forum was able to survive the many server transitions, we had many discussions about this very topic, well before the Chase was ever even a blip on the radar screen.



    Quote Originally Posted by Brierley View Post
    That's your opinion. Others feel differently. I happen to like The Chase.
    This is true, it is my opinion. But apparently it is also the opinion of many as fans are leaving the sport in droves, as evidenced by the dwindling attendance at the track and in the TV ratings.

    It can't be the car any more, the COT is dead. It's not the racing, the actual on track product is the best it has been in years. So what is it then that is causing this downward trend?


    Quote Originally Posted by Brierley View Post
    Again, your opinion.
    This is also true, but it is an opinion shared by a many people around here. You sound knowledgeable about the sport. Can you sit there and tell me that it didn't bother you a few of years ago when Jimmie Johnson had a particularly bad finish at the Brickyard and when he was interviewed he looked at the pit reporter and gave that little smirk an said "Ahh it doesn't matter, this track isn't in the Chase anyway."? That absolutely floored me when I saw that, thats when the realization set in for me that other than achieving positioning for the almighty Chase the first 26 races were basically meaningless.



    Quote Originally Posted by Brierley View Post
    Would you also include F1's doubling of the points awarded in the final race?
    Good catch....actually no, I would not, that makes 1 race more important than all the other races.
    #4 2014 Sprint Cup Champion, 2007 Daytona 500,2003 Brickyard 400,2x Coke 600,2014 Southern 500 Champ: 962 starts,90 wins, 345 T5s, 544 T10s, 44 poles, 2x NNS champ

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by slorydn1 View Post
    Post #4, 3rd paragraph down explains that for our younger members who haven't been around long.
    Thanks.

    Quote Originally Posted by slorydn1 View Post
    Ok, I'll play your game. How about Overly Manufactured. Is that better?
    If it pleases you. I don't see The Chase system as Overly Manufactured, but I said above, "others feel differently".

    Quote Originally Posted by slorydn1 View Post
    This is true, it is my opinion. But apparently it is also the opinion of many as fans are leaving the sport in droves, as evidenced by the dwindling attendance at the track and in the TV ratings.

    It can't be the car any more, the COT is dead. It's not the racing, the actual on track product is the best it has been in years. So what is it then that is causing this downward trend?
    I don't know the definitive answer as to what is causing the reduction in attendance and tv ratings, but if it were The Chase, I would think that NASCAR would abandon it. It apparently isn't bad enough for you to stop watching.




    Quote Originally Posted by slorydn1 View Post
    You sound knowledgeable about the sport. Can you sit there and tell me that it didn't bother you a few of years ago when Jimmie Johnson had a particularly bad finish at the Brickyard and when he was interviewed he looked at the pit reporter and gave that little smirk an said "Ahh it doesn't matter, this track isn't in the Chase anyway."? That absolutely floored me when I saw that, thats when the realization set in for me that other than achieving positioning for the almighty Chase the first 26 races were basically meaningless.
    Not really. All races are meaningful, whether their part of The Chase, or whether they are part of qualifying for The Chase. Was Johnson already locked into The Chase by then?

  6. #6
    Admin slorydn1's Avatar
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    No, its not enough for me to stop watching, I am one of the few left around here who rabidly loves our sport.
    They haven't been able to screw it up badly enough yet to drive me away, yet.

    As for Johnson that year, no he wasn't "locked in"like they are now. I don't remember exactly what season it was, but it would have been one of the years that they were taking the top 12 in points straight up into the Chase so I guess from that standpoint he would still have been (and was) a safe bet to make it (he was in the midst of his 5 in a row run).


    The NASCAR subforum used to be the second most posted in forum on this whole site, second only to F1. Seeing that this is primarily a European website based out of England, that's really saying something. I am sure you have noticed this place is a ghost town now. The F1 forum now has more posts in 1 hour than we amass in a week. All the old timers that used to be here are gone. They just don't post anymore. They're tired, they're fed up with the whole thing. We used to have monstrous arguments around here, especially on Sunday afternoons after a race. Your driver took mine out, my driver is better than yours, no matter how many races Kyle Busch wins he still sucks, Kevin Harvick is a Punk (etc etc etc etc). We had various pickem games going on, for all 3 national series. Everybody is gone.

    For me, as you have already figured out, its all about the races themselves, the championship has been cheapened to the point where it doesn't even matter anymore, not to the fans. Kevin Harvick could win it all this year and my only feeling toward it will be good, that makes up for the one he would have had in 2010 if this were still Winston Cup.

    How are we as fans supposed to compare the different era's when the way we decide the championship keeps changing every couple of years. It was hard enough before but at least the argument could have been made that yeah, the points system changed several times from 1949 until the mid 70's, but at least the basic road to the championship was the same, the guy with the most points at the end of the season won. So comparisons could be made between Richard Petty's 7 championships to Dale Earnhardt's 7 championships.

    If Jimmie Johnson wins it all this year, he will have his 7th, and 7 in just 13 seasons. How will that stack up against the other all the other top drivers. The media will breathlessly hype him as the G.O.A.T. But will he be?

    How are we supposed to measure it?

    I do agree that there are things about the new Chase that I like. If I didn't, I wouldn't have gone back and re-scored 13 entire seasons just to see where the current season stacks up.
    I can see where it will generate some new excitement from the young-gotta-have-instant-gratification crowd. That's why I posted my findings here, and why I participated in your first 4 drivers to be eliminated thread. I'm just wondering when some people are going to come back and take part in it also.

    I'm just sad that NASCAR felt the sport at its face value wasn't a good enough product that people would enjoy for generations to come all because 1 driver had a very consistent season and won only one race the year he won the championship. It's Matt Borland's fault that we even have the Chase to start with. Had he given Newman cars that wouldn't fall apart every other week he would have taken his 8 wins all the way to the head table at the Waldorff in 2003. But, alas, he didn't.

    Now we have a system where the winner is supposed to take all and wouldn't you know it, twice since 2001 had this current system been in place we would have had not one but TWO champions that didn't win a race the entire season? The press lost their collective minds in 2003 when Kenseth only won one race. Could you imagine what the press would do if a driver won the whole ball of wax and they never won a single race all year??? WOW is all I can say, their reaction might just be more entertaining than the season itself, lol.
    Last edited by slorydn1; 11th September 2014 at 02:47.
    #4 2014 Sprint Cup Champion, 2007 Daytona 500,2003 Brickyard 400,2x Coke 600,2014 Southern 500 Champ: 962 starts,90 wins, 345 T5s, 544 T10s, 44 poles, 2x NNS champ

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    You can count me in as a fan who doesn't like this elimination type championship run. There was never any good reason to mess with the points system as it existed for decades. If a driver managed to win the whole thing with no wins it would be done with consistency and solid finishes on every type of racetrack on the schedule. That, to me, would be a much bigger accomplishment than two or three wins on mile-and-a-half flat tracks.
    "You win some, lose some, and wreck some." - Dale Earnhardt

  8. #8
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    Put it back on the teams to make us happy with a close finish, and stop trying to manufacture excitement. I wish that old iteration of the forum was able to survive the many server transitions, we had many discussions about this very topic...

  9. #9
    Senior Member Jag_Warrior's Avatar
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    I don't really keep up with NASCAR so much these days. But I used to keep a good glance on the championship chase. But with this play off system (or whatever it is), I admit, I have no idea what's going on. It's a bit tricky for the quasi-casual fan, IMO.
    "Every generation's memory is exactly as long as its own experience." --John Kenneth Galbraith

  10. #10
    Senior Member Stan Reid's Avatar
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    I suppose the new chase system is ok but I think that's the least of Nascar's problems.

    Since I gave my F1 rule proposal on another thread I'll give mine for Nascar:

    Drop engine size down to 4 liters, allow ohc and get rid of silly restrictor plates.

    And, do something about rain delays which seem to ruin most races anymore (even Pheonix!). Either grow a pair and run in the rain or put a roof over the tracks. If you can't run on wet banks then either knock down the banks of race on the apron.
    This is my opinion and to the best of my knowledge, that is, if I'm not joking

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