Page 14 of 14 FirstFirst ... 4121314
Results 131 to 138 of 138
  1. #131
    Senior Member Tazio's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    San Diego, Ca
    Posts
    15,361
    Like
    1,116
    Liked 643 Times in 508 Posts
    2012 was an interesting season, and if Felipe would have driven in the first half of it as he did in the second half Ferrari could very well have won the WCC.
    May the forza be with you

  2. #132
    Senior Member journeyman racer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Location
    Melbourne, Australia
    Posts
    1,077
    Like
    256
    Liked 146 Times in 113 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by jens View Post
    I can see, what you are trying to say, but I'd look at it from a wider angle.

    Aerodynamics is only part of the package. I mean, yes, definitely Red Bull had the best aerodynamics throughout the era. But if the car was bad at managing tyres, it doesn't mean it was the best car in a given weekend. Just a random example - if a car has the most powerful engine, it doesn't mean it is overall the best car if it has rubbish aerodynamics. It is all part of the package.

    In late 2012 there were only three race weekends in which Red Bull genuinely performed above others - Japan, Korea, India. Other than that it was a close year all around. Vettel was battling with McLarens in Singapore and won after Hamilton's DNF. Just two weekends before that McLaren was dominating the Belgian and Italian Grands Prix. Only Pérez with his inspired tyre strategy got close in the race.

    In terms of speed it was overall very close between the packages of McLaren and Red Bull in 2012, tyres, aerodynamics, or whatnot. McLaren's problem was that they were let down by race operations and reliability, that's why they ended nowhere near titles.
    Quote Originally Posted by jens View Post
    Quick re-cap of 2012.

    There were only 3 race weekends, where Red Bull was genuinely above others (JPN, KOR, IND). Plus Valencia, where Vettel retired with a car problem, which made it academic. Vettel also won Bahrain, but it wasn't a domination, but a close fight with Lotus.

    There were also weekends in which McLaren dominated (Australia, Italy, Belgium). Hamilton also won Hungary, this time after a close fight with Lotus again. Hamilton took pole in Abu Dhabi, but retired. Räikkönen won. Hamilton and Vettel had a straight fight in USA. McLaren locked out front row in Brazil and proceeded to compete for the win with Hülkenberg.

    There were also races in which Alonso, Hamilton, Vettel - all three together - were fighting for a win. Like Canada. Germany was the same, but replace Hamilton with Button.

    Webber won at Monaco, but it was a straight fight with Mercedes. Schumacher was on pole, but penalized. Webber won in UK, but it was a straight fight with Ferrari once Alonso got its final stint tyre strategy gamble wrong. Ferrari was genuinely fast that weekend, Massa finished fourth not far behind.

    You can talk about aerodynamics and tyres, how you like, but the balance of powers was swinging around all year.

    Each race was different, each scenario was different. That's what made the season incredible, truly incredible! You even had Grosjean, Pérez, Maldonado, Räikkönen, Hülkenberg, Rosberg, Schumacher going for odd race wins in different weekends. But somebody is trying to tell us it was a boring Red Bull wipe-out.
    You can go all day about specific moments to enhance your views, and further validate Vettel. I'm not going to spend my time having to justifying why certain drivers/cars were quicker/better at specific races or practice sessions. The FIA introduced some variables which worked. Even though it affected the integrity of F1 as a motorsport competition . You can give me specific circumstances, but they're meaningless.

    Overall, the RB was the best car throughout 10-13 seasons. It may've had some relative weaknesses, but relative weaknesses is all they were. You could point at the Renault and say it wasn't the most powerful engine, therefore the RB couldn't have been the best car. It was using the same tyres as the other. The rules are so tight you couldn't experiment strategically with them. Aero provides the greatest degree of performance, and only weight distribution has any meaningful effect

    With the same tyres and a lower powered engine, it still set a lot more poles, won a lot more races than anybody else! Along with winning both driver's and constructor's c'ship for each of those 4 seasons! Yet you're going to give me specific moments when the car wasn't comprehensively dominating?

    I mean, come on, please, spare me..

  3. #133
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Estonia
    Posts
    6,744
    Like
    145
    Liked 209 Times in 165 Posts
    I don't think anyone is arguing that over the whole of 2010-2013 Red Bull was the best car.

    However, when we are going into the specifics of 2012, do you really disagree McLaren wasn't as fast as Red Bull? I mean we are not talking about the exception of one or two races, where Red Bull was struggling. We are talking about average performance over a whole year. And there were lots of races, where McLaren was really fast. Not just 1 or 2 races.

    I can understand the argument about 2013, when there were about 2-3-4 races, where Ferrari was above Red Bull due to superior tyre management early in the season. But over a full year they were nowhere near Red Bull, who pulled a big gap in the second half of the season. Now this is exactly, what you are talking about.
    Last edited by jens; 11th April 2015 at 00:49.

  4. #134
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    1,583
    Like
    68
    Liked 182 Times in 139 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by journeyman racer View Post
    This post is a classic case of having a prejudiced opinion, then skewing what happened to suit that view.

    The rules, particularly regarding the use of tyres in 12 and 13, were primarily designed to knobble the RB. The way the tech regs have evolved over the last 10-20 years, has often meant the greatest determining factor on performance has been aero. Which has been the strength of the RB throughout 10-13. The rules are so tight, that it's hard to overcome a deficiency of performance, particularly a black art like aero. Even over a few years.

    It worked in the first half of 12. But once RB overcame this obstacle strategically, Vettel/RB won four on the trot. The season was too long for Ferrari, and was too much for Alonso to overcome his disadvantages.

    Even your own comments contradict yourself. Go back to my post you were replying to and see the first sentence. What I was saying is that the RBR car certainly did not dominate over Ferrari the whole of 2012 season, as the poster I was replying to said. In the first half of 2012, while all the teams were struggling to figure out how to the tires worked, RBR did not seem to have any advantage. Things got so weird that even Williams and Sauber had a fair shot at winning a race.

    So I don't see how anything you have written exposes me as being biased. And by the way, since when winning four races in a row (in a season with 20 races), somehow proves that Red Bull was either the dominant car overall or just dominant over Ferrari the WHOLE SEASON? Moreover, you still fail to see that even though Vettel had four wins in the second half of season, both McLaren cars combined had five wins in the second half of season, and in fact if Hamilton's McLaren did not have a gear box failure while he was leading the race in Singapore, the McLaren would have claimed six race wins in the last 10 races of the season to Red Bulls 3. So all these FACTS about the 2012 season make me really doubtful about the Red Bull dominance in that season. At best, Red Bull clearly dominated Ferrari here and there in the second half of the season, but at the same time McLarens frequently showed amazing performance as well. When I think about why Vettel won in 2012, I think not only about his and RBR's work, but I also recall how many times the other teams screwed up or had a very bad luck. McLaren had an amazingly fast car, but they screwed up the pit work, strategy or reliability so many times that Hamilton dumped this teams after working for so many years with them.
    Last edited by zako85; 11th April 2015 at 15:43.

  5. #135
    Senior Member journeyman racer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Location
    Melbourne, Australia
    Posts
    1,077
    Like
    256
    Liked 146 Times in 113 Posts
    Either of you tell me where McLaren made their gains in 12? What rules changed so that McLaren increased their performance relative to RB?

    They had a more powerful engine. But they had that previously, and were clearly inferior to the RB. They're using the same tyres. An already more powerful engine and the same wheels/tyres. The two fundamental components on a car to require it to move (aero isn't a necessary component). The two fundamental components on a car to be classified as a car.

    The RB strength was their aero. The tyre rules in 12 were designed to hinder RB. With softer tyres, as an outsider, it's plausible to say RB turned up the downforce a bit more, and this gave McLaren the sporting chance. It's possible. Are you blokes saying McLaren improved their aero in 12?

    Since aero is a such a black art. You can't just replicate another competitor and get the same results. Whatever gain you make, you keep. So how did McLaren go from supposedly being the best/fastest car in 12, to flopping in 13?

    You tell me.
    Last edited by journeyman racer; 12th April 2015 at 02:25.

  6. #136
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2001
    Location
    Terra Germanica
    Posts
    2,948
    Like
    17
    Liked 146 Times in 122 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by journeyman racer View Post
    So how did McLaren go from supposedly being the best/fastest car in 12, to flopping in 13?

    You tell me.
    Very simple. While everyone built his 2013 car as an evolution of their 2012 car, because it was the last year of the 'old rules', McLaren scrapped the design and started from scratch. And they mucked it up spectacularly.
    как могу я знать что я думаю, пока не слушал что я говорю

  7. Likes: journeyman racer (12th April 2015)
  8. #137
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Estonia
    Posts
    6,744
    Like
    145
    Liked 209 Times in 165 Posts
    2012 saw the ban of EBD - Exhaust Blown Diffuser. So there was a regulation change. At the start of the season it was a big talking point. It took the edge away from Red Bull, who all of a sudden qualified only 5th and 6th in Australia season opener.

    As for McLaren - they were already pretty good in 2011. Not quite a match to Red Bull, but still good, clear second. Remember, Button got lots of second place race finishes that year, ahead of Webber. So it is not like McLaren's aerodynamics sucked at the time, they were a good team. Then when Red Bull struggled to adapt to 2012 EBD ban, McLaren capitalized, and designed a car as fast or faster depending on circuit and circumstances.

    Red Bull somewhat overcame this temporary loss of aerodynamic performance only late in the 2012 season, when Vettel got his string of wins. And Red Bull further perfected their design for the 2013 season, when they were aerodynamically clearly superior again.

    As for the sudden drop of McLaren's performance in 2013. Probably to do with loss of key personnel - chief designer Paddy Lowe left in mid 2012. You can also ask, why did Williams suck so heavily in 2013 after a genuinely strong 2012. Or what about Sauber, who got lots of podiums in 2012.

    Each season is different, so are team performances. Depending on the depth of the team and how can they adapt to new season regulations. Or even if there are no big regulation changes, performances can still shift around. Look at Red Bull. Recently praised for their chassis superiority, can now barely beat Toro Rosso! So changes, even big changes in performance quality, do happen, if teams themselves change (designers, engineers, etc).

  9. #138
    Senior Member journeyman racer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Location
    Melbourne, Australia
    Posts
    1,077
    Like
    256
    Liked 146 Times in 113 Posts
    I was going to respond to dj. But jens has just posted a fair amount to text. So I'll need some time to go through all that.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •