Results 131 to 138 of 138
-
9th April 2015, 22:55 #131
- Join Date
- Mar 2006
- Location
- San Diego, Ca
- Posts
- 15,386
- Like
- 1,117
- Liked 645 Times in 510 Posts
2012 was an interesting season, and if Felipe would have driven in the first half of it as he did in the second half Ferrari could very well have won the WCC.
May the forza be with you
-
10th April 2015, 16:21 #132
- Join Date
- Nov 2013
- Location
- Melbourne, Australia
- Posts
- 1,077
- Like
- 256
- Liked 146 Times in 113 Posts
You can go all day about specific moments to enhance your views, and further validate Vettel. I'm not going to spend my time having to justifying why certain drivers/cars were quicker/better at specific races or practice sessions. The FIA introduced some variables which worked. Even though it affected the integrity of F1 as a motorsport competition . You can give me specific circumstances, but they're meaningless.
Overall, the RB was the best car throughout 10-13 seasons. It may've had some relative weaknesses, but relative weaknesses is all they were. You could point at the Renault and say it wasn't the most powerful engine, therefore the RB couldn't have been the best car. It was using the same tyres as the other. The rules are so tight you couldn't experiment strategically with them. Aero provides the greatest degree of performance, and only weight distribution has any meaningful effect
With the same tyres and a lower powered engine, it still set a lot more poles, won a lot more races than anybody else! Along with winning both driver's and constructor's c'ship for each of those 4 seasons! Yet you're going to give me specific moments when the car wasn't comprehensively dominating?
I mean, come on, please, spare me..
-
10th April 2015, 23:46 #133
- Join Date
- Jul 2006
- Location
- Estonia
- Posts
- 6,744
- Like
- 145
- Liked 209 Times in 165 Posts
I don't think anyone is arguing that over the whole of 2010-2013 Red Bull was the best car.
However, when we are going into the specifics of 2012, do you really disagree McLaren wasn't as fast as Red Bull? I mean we are not talking about the exception of one or two races, where Red Bull was struggling. We are talking about average performance over a whole year. And there were lots of races, where McLaren was really fast. Not just 1 or 2 races.
I can understand the argument about 2013, when there were about 2-3-4 races, where Ferrari was above Red Bull due to superior tyre management early in the season. But over a full year they were nowhere near Red Bull, who pulled a big gap in the second half of the season. Now this is exactly, what you are talking about.Last edited by jens; 10th April 2015 at 23:49.
-
11th April 2015, 14:39 #134
- Join Date
- Jun 2011
- Posts
- 1,583
- Like
- 68
- Liked 182 Times in 139 Posts
Even your own comments contradict yourself. Go back to my post you were replying to and see the first sentence. What I was saying is that the RBR car certainly did not dominate over Ferrari the whole of 2012 season, as the poster I was replying to said. In the first half of 2012, while all the teams were struggling to figure out how to the tires worked, RBR did not seem to have any advantage. Things got so weird that even Williams and Sauber had a fair shot at winning a race.
So I don't see how anything you have written exposes me as being biased. And by the way, since when winning four races in a row (in a season with 20 races), somehow proves that Red Bull was either the dominant car overall or just dominant over Ferrari the WHOLE SEASON? Moreover, you still fail to see that even though Vettel had four wins in the second half of season, both McLaren cars combined had five wins in the second half of season, and in fact if Hamilton's McLaren did not have a gear box failure while he was leading the race in Singapore, the McLaren would have claimed six race wins in the last 10 races of the season to Red Bulls 3. So all these FACTS about the 2012 season make me really doubtful about the Red Bull dominance in that season. At best, Red Bull clearly dominated Ferrari here and there in the second half of the season, but at the same time McLarens frequently showed amazing performance as well. When I think about why Vettel won in 2012, I think not only about his and RBR's work, but I also recall how many times the other teams screwed up or had a very bad luck. McLaren had an amazingly fast car, but they screwed up the pit work, strategy or reliability so many times that Hamilton dumped this teams after working for so many years with them.Last edited by zako85; 11th April 2015 at 14:43.
-
12th April 2015, 01:17 #135
- Join Date
- Nov 2013
- Location
- Melbourne, Australia
- Posts
- 1,077
- Like
- 256
- Liked 146 Times in 113 Posts
Either of you tell me where McLaren made their gains in 12? What rules changed so that McLaren increased their performance relative to RB?
They had a more powerful engine. But they had that previously, and were clearly inferior to the RB. They're using the same tyres. An already more powerful engine and the same wheels/tyres. The two fundamental components on a car to require it to move (aero isn't a necessary component). The two fundamental components on a car to be classified as a car.
The RB strength was their aero. The tyre rules in 12 were designed to hinder RB. With softer tyres, as an outsider, it's plausible to say RB turned up the downforce a bit more, and this gave McLaren the sporting chance. It's possible. Are you blokes saying McLaren improved their aero in 12?
Since aero is a such a black art. You can't just replicate another competitor and get the same results. Whatever gain you make, you keep. So how did McLaren go from supposedly being the best/fastest car in 12, to flopping in 13?
You tell me.Last edited by journeyman racer; 12th April 2015 at 01:25.
-
12th April 2015, 01:34 #136
- Join Date
- May 2001
- Location
- Terra Germanica
- Posts
- 2,948
- Like
- 17
- Liked 146 Times in 122 Posts
как могу я знать что я думаю, пока не слушал что я говорю
- Likes: journeyman racer (12th April 2015)
-
12th April 2015, 02:41 #137
- Join Date
- Jul 2006
- Location
- Estonia
- Posts
- 6,744
- Like
- 145
- Liked 209 Times in 165 Posts
2012 saw the ban of EBD - Exhaust Blown Diffuser. So there was a regulation change. At the start of the season it was a big talking point. It took the edge away from Red Bull, who all of a sudden qualified only 5th and 6th in Australia season opener.
As for McLaren - they were already pretty good in 2011. Not quite a match to Red Bull, but still good, clear second. Remember, Button got lots of second place race finishes that year, ahead of Webber. So it is not like McLaren's aerodynamics sucked at the time, they were a good team. Then when Red Bull struggled to adapt to 2012 EBD ban, McLaren capitalized, and designed a car as fast or faster depending on circuit and circumstances.
Red Bull somewhat overcame this temporary loss of aerodynamic performance only late in the 2012 season, when Vettel got his string of wins. And Red Bull further perfected their design for the 2013 season, when they were aerodynamically clearly superior again.
As for the sudden drop of McLaren's performance in 2013. Probably to do with loss of key personnel - chief designer Paddy Lowe left in mid 2012. You can also ask, why did Williams suck so heavily in 2013 after a genuinely strong 2012. Or what about Sauber, who got lots of podiums in 2012.
Each season is different, so are team performances. Depending on the depth of the team and how can they adapt to new season regulations. Or even if there are no big regulation changes, performances can still shift around. Look at Red Bull. Recently praised for their chassis superiority, can now barely beat Toro Rosso! So changes, even big changes in performance quality, do happen, if teams themselves change (designers, engineers, etc).
-
12th April 2015, 04:03 #138
- Join Date
- Nov 2013
- Location
- Melbourne, Australia
- Posts
- 1,077
- Like
- 256
- Liked 146 Times in 113 Posts
I was going to respond to dj. But jens has just posted a fair amount to text. So I'll need some time to go through all that.
Walk This Way - Aerosmith
Never Ending Song Titles - Words...