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  1. #11
    Senior Member journeyman racer's Avatar
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    Both Williams and Benetton were using the Renault, both were using Goodyears (only tyre supplier), they were generally a harder compound. So there goes two major variables. The mid-90s GP cars were amongst the most aero reliant cars ever. I pick the Spanish GP because of the reputation the Catalunya has had, and the Schumacher's car was on heavier tanks!

    Brawn was talking out of his bum. He would never have made a statement like that had he been working for a team with exclusive manufacturer support (Like with Mercedes). But Benetton being an independent team, funded by a clothes brand, they didn't care.

  2. #12
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    1998

    Well, here we go. My first full season.


    23.Ricardo Rosset - Admit it, you're shocked.
    22.Jan Magnussen - Worse than 1997. shake mah head indeed.
    21.Shinji Nakano - Poor pace, but actually quite competent and consistent.
    20.Esteban Tuero - shone at times, especially 17th on the grid in Melbourne, but overall not great, retiring 11 times.
    19.Pedro Diniz - Compared well with Salo. Did well to get 2 points finishes and was quite mature in this respect.
    18.Jos Verstappen - Started his Stewart stint well, but overall miles off Barrichello and unable to shine.
    17.Johnny Herbert - Started the season strongly. 5th on the grid in Melbourne was fantastic, but after that fell out with Alesi in Argentina and fell off the face of the earth on performance.
    16.Olivier Panis - Not much of a season. Managed 1 or 2 top 10 grid slots. Not bad in that car.
    15.Mika Salo - Superb at Monaco and could have done even better. But otherwise too average and anonymous.
    14.Tora Takagi - Well fast at times. Qualified 13th in Australia and Argentina.
    13.Jarno Trulli - The poor Prost made his head drop, but still outperformed Panis. Held on for a vital point in Belgium.
    12.Jean Alesi - Strong year for Alesi, great at Monza too.
    11.Heinz-Harald Frentzen - Went missing mid-season but overall much better than 1997 with great bookends to season.
    10.Damon Hill - Not bad for a 37/8 yr old. Some good drives later in the year.
    9.Ralf Schumacher - Outqualified Damon 10-6.
    8.Alexander Wurz - Brilliant job early on. Old head on (then) young shoulders.
    7.Giancarlo Fisichella - Missed out on points early on, though much his own fault. Some great drives but overall not quite as spectacular as 97.
    6.Rubens Barrichello - I feel he did at least as well as anyone behind him, coming 5th in Spain and Canada was cool.
    5.Eddie Irvine - Improved pace, but fantastic steadiness in amassing 47pts means he pips those ahead to 5th.
    4.David Coulthard - Narrowly beaten by Jacques. Things didn't go his way and his head dropped, but still one of the best.
    3.Jacques Villeneuve - Considered more impressive than 1997 with several brilliant performances, though a few duds too.
    2.Mika Hakkinen - Logical choice
    1.Michael Schumacher - No title but was the bestestest
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  3. #13
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    1999

    1.Michael Schumacher - Not his greatest year, but he was still the best.
    2.Ralf Schumacher - In only his third season was simply scintillating and on great form throughout.
    3.Mika Hakkinen - Not his greatest year either, but still the second best around.
    4.Jacques Villeneuve - Brilliant throughout and never gave up, but maybe a bit too negative, and I don't know if he was as consistent as some, maybe a few more mistakes than some.
    5.Rubens Barrichello - A very strong season in a car he could show his talent in. Faded by the end after departure announced.
    6.Heinz-Harald Frentzen - Not as quick as Villeneuve or Barrichello I felt, but he put together such a consistently good season, having come back from seemingly the end of his career after 98.
    7.Eddie Irvine - Another greatly steady and consistent season, but some very poor pace at times.
    8.David Coulthard - An annus Horriblis, but suffered bad reliability. Won more races than 98 though.
    9.Giancarlo Fisichella - A mix of great performances and disappointing ones, so on average ok.
    10.Jarno Trulli - Should maybe be higher up. 6th in Spain was superb, along with many strong top 10 qualifying performances. But apart from his 2 points finishes, maybe struggles to actually put results on the board even accounting for the car?
    11.Jean Alesi - Another mix of mediocrity with a scattering of moments of pure genius, such as challenging for pole in Spain and collecting a front row at rainy France.
    12.Pedro de la Rosa - An impressive and steady debut season against Takagi.
    13.Mika Salo - Very poor at BAR, extremely average at Ferrari apart from 2 good races. But he had been rusty having been away.
    14.Olivier Panis - A little underrated. Great run to 6th in Brazil. Fastest lap at Hockenheim till Coulthard took it just near the end. Qualified in the top 6 3 times, ran 3rd in Japan early on. Better than he may have looked against Trulli.
    15.Johnny Herbert - Mostly destroyed by Barrichello and wasting the car, until the final 3 races!
    16.Toranosuke Takagi - A bit overlooked. Wild but quick for a 2nd year driver at the back.
    17.Pedro Diniz - A mature approach and some great races to some 6th places were impressive.
    18.Alexander Wurz - A bit harsh as was stuffed by Flav, but poor in races...
    19.Stéphane Sarrazin - Great debut beating Gené, but spun 10(?) times in a race crash.
    20.Alessandro Zanardi - Oh dear. But I could never see him being THAT good anyway as I feel the drivers in top teams in CART in 97-98 were not a match for those in F1. Had a run of 3 great races (Hungary-Monza) when given an engineer he liked, only for that time.
    21.Ricardo Zonta - Poor season, but given the benefit of the doubt as the new team was a shambles.
    22.Damon Hill - An embarrassment sadly, simply giving in after realising he wasn't going to beat Frentzen. Still some good moments like leading Silverstone and starting 4th at Spa.
    23.Luca Badoer - Some strong races such as on for 6th in Australia and 2nd at the Nurburgring (4th after problems).
    24.Marc Gené - A bit slow, but great performances at times like qualifying 15th at Hockenheim. Got better as the year went on.
    Last edited by rjbetty; 11th June 2014 at 07:48.
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  4. #14
    Senior Member steveaki13's Avatar
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    I have some thoughts too. I will share them when I get a moment.
    I still exist and still find the forum occasionally. Busy busy

  5. #15
    Senior Member journeyman racer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rjbetty View Post
    1.Michael Schumacher - Not his greatest year, but he was still the best.
    Accounting for all the variables, HHF was the best in 1999. Moral champ.

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by journeyman racer View Post
    Accounting for all the variables, HHF was the best in 1999. Moral champ.
    Yeah, it is very hard as it´s all subjective. I don´t know whether to try to rank everyone purely on what I think their performance was. But then some drivers who would be low down I feel did a brilliant job given their circumstances (such as a rookie), who even while slower than other drivers, maybe did much better with what they had and for where they were at. But it´s all subjective judgment. Just me thoughts though, and just thought it´s interesting to put them down.

    As for Frentzen, he´s lower than expected cos I feel if you measured him against Michael he may not have been much better than Irvine, and when you take everyone´s cars into account (HHF had a darn good one), suddenly the picture changes quite a bit.
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  7. #17
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    2000

    22.Gaston Mazzacane - Competent rookie, but not very quick. About 0.6-0.7sec off Gené with less experience, not bad.
    21.Marc Gené - Solid season, but again not very quick.

    20.Pedro Diniz - Though he continued to get slightly quicker over the preceding season, even so, this time seemed a step back and didn't look as assured. Some good moments such as starting 10th at Imola and 9th at Indianapolis, where he also ran 2nd in the race for a while. Otherwise quite forgettable with some crashes.
    19.Johnny Herbert - A great disappointment following his seeming unlocking of performance at the end of 99. Well down the midfield most of the year and no points was poor for someone so experienced.

    18.Ricardo Zonta - An improvement with a few standout performances such as starting 6th at Austria (outqualifying Villeneuve) and 8th in Brazil (ahead of Jacques again) and Canada, but otherwise slow and anonymous, also making errors.
    17.Alexander Wurz - Struggled to score any points while Fisi got 18. A bad season, though Fisi got preferential treatment. When he got the latest specs for the final races, he started 5th at Sepang(!) though again faded in the race out of the points.

    16.Nick Heidfeld - A trio of shocking back row performances in the first half appeared to seal Heidfeld's F1 fate for the rest of his career really. But in hindsight, maybe it was understandable it would take time to settle in such a difficult situation at Prost. More than matched Alesi in the second half, which was more representative but which went largely unnoticed.
    15.Jos Verstappen - One of my favourite drivers. A great comeback with some VERY strong races in that rocketship Orange Arrows. Jos was one of the revelations of the season for me, running well up there in Australia, possibly a podium in Brazil before fatigue set in; fighting M.Schumacher at Silvertsone, before overtaking both Jordans to 5th in Canada and fighting R.Schumacher for the podium at Monza, settling for 4th. It was mostly the car however, which is why he isn't ranked higher.

    14.Mika Salo - A mix of some strong performances, including a podium in Australia lost in the pits, hounding Villeneuve for 5th at Imola ahead of Jordans, running 3rd at Austria early on, and finishing 5th at Monaco and Hockenheim. However, everything else mostly mediocre.
    13.Jean Alesi - Another mix of the sublime (such as starting 7th at Monaco and running in the points in the rain at Spa) and the ridiculous.

    12.Pedro de la Rosa - After a rookie season at the back, the 29yr old got his hands on a mega car and made much more use of it than Verstappen, wowing at the Nurburgring finishing 6th when all McLarens and Ferraris finished, on for 3rd in Austria before retiring, having to start from the back after qualifying 9th at his home race, and starting 5th at Hockenheim. Canada was maybe the best though, starting 9th, he flew in the race, and sensationally overtook Mika Hakkinen for 3rd on merit. Many many points lost, but he fairly dominated Verstappen and was harshly sacked having been first in the queue for the BAR drive that went to Panis.
    11.A solid but terribly frustrating season for Irvine, who annihlated Herbert (though tellingly not as much as Rubens had in 99). Points were very rare, so what a shame Austria was the one race he missed. Given he often went well there and Herbert finished just a few seconds of 4th/5th, what could Irvine have done...?

    10.Giancarlo Fisichella - On the first half of the season would have ranked higher, but again this was undone by a poor 0pts in the second half. His end of the season was particularly woeful as was giving up and parking the car in Hungary. However he had suffered a massive testing crash which looked like it knocked him a bit. But needed a massive attitude change as time was running out for his career by now.
    9.Heinz-Harald Frentzen - Lacked the brilliance of 99, though still drove well throughout. Was shown up by Trulli a fair few times on pace, but still one of the strongest drivers.

    8.Ralf Schumacher - A high performing season, though like Frentzen it lacked the brilliant edge of his 99, as he felt threatened by Button. A clear 5th in the WDC in not the 3rd fastest car was very good though.
    7.Jenson Button - Ranked this highly as he did what he did at only 20, straight out of British F3. Many anonymous weekends, which was understandable, but some wonderful ones too, which made Ralf look silly really. At the time, he made a huge impact as having only watched F1 properly from 1998, I never had seen a rookie like him yet.

    6.Jarno Trulli - As the new guy, matched Frentzen in qualifying and had some great highs, starting on the front row at tracks as diverse as Monaco and Spa. Often showed Frentzen up with less experience, and I see no reason why he couldn't have won Monaco given he was leading and DC simply couldn't get past.
    5.Rubens Barrichello - His season was considered disappointing, but I disagree. It was his first season in a top team, and immediately he matched Michael in Australia, setting fastest lap. Beat Michael all weekend at Silverstone, only losing due to developing engine failure. Also outqualified Michael at Austria (a very strong track for Rubens) and came close a few other times. Yes there were a few weekends where he was a little anonymous (especially the 'drivers' tracks Monaco, Spa and Suzuka) but overall noticeably better than Irvine.

    4.Jacques Villeneuve - His last good season. Consistent and strong most of the time, with a fighting attitude. Shame his Honda blew having qualified 4th at Monza. Also ran right up there in Canada early on after a great start.
    3.David Coulthard - Almost 2nd here, but Mika was a bit better again. This was DC's most convincing season yet, and at one point mid-season, he was the driver who looked to have the championship momentum.

    2.Mika Hakkinen - A little disappointing compared to before, but still some great performances such as winning at Spa.
    1.Michael Schumacher - Contary to popular belief, I do NOT believe the Ferrari was equal to the McLaren, but still slower, and I believe the commonly held view does a dis-service to Michael. I admit his final lap in Japan brought some tears to my eyes as the weight of what he was about to achieve started to really dawn. Crossing the line to finally, finally, bring the title to Ferrari after all those years of struggle, was probably my greatest highlight as an F1 fan. His whole race weekend actually was impeccable, as was Mika's, and for me the whole Japanese GP 2000 encapsulated the whole passion of what Formula 1 is all about.
    Last edited by rjbetty; 12th June 2014 at 06:01.
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  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by journeyman racer View Post
    - With the possible exception of the engineering team of both 1995 Benetton and Williams cars gave me a 12 month course/lecture on the differences between both cars and where the advantage was for Williams, and how that advantage was supposedly 2-3/10ths. There is absolutely no way that anyone is going to tell me the popular notion that the Williams was superior to the Benetton that year. No one who watched the 1995 Spanish GP could come to that conclusion. If it was, then either Hill and Coulthard were tanking. Schumacher may be better than both, but he's not that much better.
    Hmmm, ok I'm gonna consider this, but given that Hill and Coulthard both scored more poles than Schumacher, I'm not sure yet? Are you sure the Williams/Benetton didn't just have a bad/good weekend that one time regarding setup etc.?

    - I don't see how Hamilton's debut year could be seen to be significantly better than Villeneuve's. The biggest differences I recall was the specialist British press weren't so bothered of the newbie having to follow team orders in 96, and that Hamilton hasn't yet done anything as good as Villeneuve's Portuguese GP win.
    Well, though I think McLaren probably had marginally the fastest car over 2007, just as I think they were slightly slower than Ferrari over the balance of 2008, I don't think Lewis until now has come close to having as dominant a car as Villeneuve enjoyed. As for overtaking moves to win, what about Hamilton's Germany 2011 for example? (also, just to mention Villeneuve didn't win the 1996 Portuguese GP :P )

    As for team-orders, I don't know, but didn't Villeneuve finish ahead of Hill at both Magny-Cours and Hungary...?

    - Regardless of whatever the advantage was, I'd still put Hill as the best driver of 1996.
    Hmmm I respectfully disagree. Though Hill scored far more points than Michael, I don't know of him doing anything like Barcelona '96. He did win some races by big margins but he had a great car. So I have to put Michael ahead, by a fair way too.

    It's good to discuss this stuff though.
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  9. #19
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    2001

    26.Gaston Mazzacane - No surprise, but I liked him somehow and always wish he could have kept that Prost drive.

    25.Alex Yoong - Couldn't show much in 3 races, but I felt Marques was a bit better.

    24.Tarso Marques - Got all the rubbish parts but outqualified Alonso twice (by default in Malaysia certainly).

    23.Ricardo Zonta - Looked quite good in Canada, though that was always an especially good track for him. Hockenheim was a clearer picture, qualifying 15th and retiring after collision damage...

    22.Enrique Bernoldi - Unfairly maligned for daring to race Coulthard at Monaco. Then Coulthard did the same thing to Schumacher the following year - hypocritical much? Always tried his best and deserved better treatment. Outqualifying Jos 9-8 in season 1 was good.

    21.Luciano Burti - Some way off Irvine, then suddenly went to Prost and outqualified Alesi 3-5, that's telling. I feel he was Marginally quicker than Bernoldi, though had some crashes.

    20.Tomas Enge - Actually pretty good considering, I thought. Averaged 0.7sec off Frentzen in qualifying but was quietly very good in races, improving all the time, setting his best lap on the final one at Monza.

    19.Jos Verstappen - Some amazing fighting drives, including even looking for the win in Malaysia, fighting Hakkinen and Frentzen before dropping back. Also ran 2nd in Austria for a while. However, was dog slow and outqualified by rookie Bernoldi a lot.

    18.Jenson Button - I think enough was said about how dreadful he was in 2001, as evidenced by steveaki's signature. Maybe does a dis-service to Fisichella to only say it was Jenson being poor though?

    17.de la Rosa - Sneaks in here cos he had a disrupted part-season. Outqualified Irvine 6 times in a row(!) but never once fiished ahead in races (in 2 years) as Eddie correctly pointed out. Still, 2 fighting points finishes were good.

    16.Jean Alesi - Can't put him much higher really. He was ok at Prost, especially in racing and finishing, and was great to see him score 4pts. He was rubbish at Jordan though.

    15.Jacques Villeneuve - Underperformer of the season, and actually averaged 0.009sec behind Panis in qualifying. Was great to see him score 2 podiums, until he stepped onto them and we saw his miserable face. Jeez...

    14.Heinz-Harald Frentzen - Another who underperformed, outqualifying Trulli just once! And to think it all started so well with a very competitive Melbourne. Just went downhill, and his eventual 7th at Silverstone from 5th on the grid, when some cars retired, was extremely lame. Shame his 4th on the grid at Spa was wasted. Immediately faster than Alesi but his race pace seemed to lack a bit. Was one of the cars beaten by Alonso on merit in Japan...

    13.Mika Hakkinen - Extremely lame, not Damon Hill lame because he did score 2 fantastic victories, as well as leading Spain by 30sec(!) until retiring on the last lap! What an OMGosh moment - crazy. Maybe it's too harsh to put him this far down, but I feel so many other drivers did well.

    12.Olivier Panis - Surpassed all my expectations against Villeneuve. At the time, he was one of the revelations of the season for me, finishing 4th in Australia before being penalised, almost a podium in Brazil, a fantastic drive at Imola running 3rd for a while, then a 5th in Austria well ahead of Villeneuve. Unfortunately, he rather went missing in the second half when it became clear a McLaren drive was up for grabs and he was no longer the tester (i.e. he thought he's be quids in for that race drive had he stayed as tester), and this seemed to affect his performance.

    11.Rubens Barrichello - This season was enough to shatter the myth that for me Rubens could go on to be one of THE very best drivers of all in F1. He was pretty weak in this car a lot of the time, though it was probably only slightly quicker than the McLaren, it's more that Michael drove so well. Still, ought to have won a race maybe, but 10 podiums ok but I'm not sure he deserves to be in the top 10 though only JUST misses out.

    10.Eddie Irvine - Apart from a bad patch in mid-season, and opening his big mouth too much to slag off team members and declare he's the 2nd best driver, quicker than Mika etc. This was under the surface, a pretty good season for Irvine, who just seemed to get better every year. The car was dog slow, but under the radar, Irvine quietly climbed up the order during races, missing out on many 5th-8th finishes through unreliability, only just behind a MUCH less deserving Hakkinen (for the 2nd time in 3yrs) at the Nurburgring, and got a podium (he was the only driver to ever podium for Jaguar). The race pace was why he pipped Rubens and co here.

    9.Nick Heidfeld - I think I was one of the few expecting a good season from Nick, but he exceeded even my own hopes, being a fixture around the points all season, much like Johnny Herbert in 97. Soaked up the unexpected pressure from Kimi great too.

    8.Jarno Trulli - Had this been just for qualifying, I'd probably have put Jarno 2nd.

    7.David Coulthard - Possibly his best season of all, though he wasn't that quick. I still don't know how he won in Austria starting from the 4th row, and the momentum looked in his favour early on. Complaining about Bernoldi wasn't really on though, given that Verstappen overtook several cars. I'm wondering if David is too low here, but it is SO close! Others are ahead due to levels of experience and circumstances overcome etc. There's really nothing in it, so 7th much better than it looks this time.

    6.Ralf Schumacher - Would probably have put him 2nd but for losing his way toward the end of the season.

    5.Juan-Pablo Montoya - Fireworks were long expected, but I don't think anyone thought he'd be in the running to win 5 or more races! Some journalists who ought to have known better eccentrically exclaimed he was so good he would beat Ralf in his first year (smh indeed!!!), while then saying it was preposterous that Fisi should be thought to be any good. Mentioning no names, but there were several! Anyway, an unexpectedly competitive Williams played a huge part, cos in truth Montoya only outqualified Ralf 6-11 (same as Jenson in 2000). Though that's no disgrace, it was in races he shone, and even though I'm not much of a fan, his Brazil pass was reeeeeally good (though maybe you went a bit OTT Nigel Roebuck, like, we should call men in white coats OTT). But still a great first season.

    4.Giancarlo Fisichella - Hard to tell where he fits in, but he's RIGHT in the VERY close mix for 2nd I have here. Who expected him to destroy Button? Jenson struggled but I think Fisi wasn't given enough credit for transforming himself and showing great resilience. Most impressive of all is that he did all this without having to resort to Nico Rosberg/Sebastian Vettel/Many other drivers underhandedness and dirty trickery. It was all done in purity, for which I have great respect. I'm sure his Monaco crash was actually a suspension fault, yet he was blamed... Finished 6th in Brazil ahead of Alesi and Villeneuve in better cars, in the same race Steve's quote is from. Ahead of others this time (by tiny amounts) due to less experience, and defying expectations in difficult circumstances. This season really made me a Fisi believer again.

    3.Kimi Raikkonen - Because of his incredible inexperience he is this high. Max Mosley and others campaigned quite viciously to refuse him a superlicence (smh!) yet he blew me away by matching an on-form Heidfeld all season. Just fantastic!

    2.Fernando Alonso - Maybe a surprise, as on absolute performance he wouldn't be this far up yet. However I feel he would maybe be at least 12th on pure performance, and all this as a 19yr old rookie in a bad situation and car. The Minardi wasn't close to another car, yet Alonso beat Arrows, Benettons, Prosts, and even BARs. It's what he did for where he was at that edges him 2nd. I feel he deserves it slightly more than those behind.

    1.Michael Schumacher - Simply the best, to the point he fooled everyone into thinking he had a dominant car that year (pssst he probably didn't - just check out Rubens for example, was he really that poor?)
    Last edited by rjbetty; 12th June 2014 at 08:19.
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  10. #20
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    Should I give a ranking, how I rate their seasons right now in retrospect or how was I rating back then?

    A lot of thoughts rjbetty, wow. I think one day I'll read it properly, but right now I am not going to deepen into it.

    Some general thoughts.
    2001 - I think M. Schumacher above, but behind him there was a very tight group from which it is hard to choose, who stood out more. Drivers like Coulthard, R. Schumacher, Trulli and Fisichella certainly belong into this group. I don't put Räikkönen or Alonso that high for 2001 since they were new and Räikkönen was actually outperformed by Heidfeld.

    2000. M.Schumacher first, Häkkinen next, but then I think Villeneuve, R. Schumacher and Fisichella all have a good claim for the next positions. Beat their team-mates and scored well. Coulthard also had a good season. Frentzen and Trulli harder to judge since their car was unreliable and they lost a fair amount of good results.

    1999. Frentzen - my driver of the year. M.Schumacher had a partial season, but for the time he raced he is also right up there. Häkkinen made a few blunders, but in terms of speed as good as always. R. Schumacher, Barrichello and Villeneuve were very good and crucially consistent as well.

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