Two horse race already?

[OmarF1]

I just have one "maybe stupid" question, but how much the lack of overtaking in our F1 era are because of the use of carbon brakes?

[ArrowsFA1]

I think that's a big factor OmarF1.

[jens]

I'd like to add one more explanation to your early 80s tight championship battles. Then we had competition between turbo and non-turbo engines and at that time turbo engines were not unbeatable in overall yet. It meant that turbo-powered cars won usually on faster circuits and non-turbos on twistier circuits. And of course the more powerful turbos were a lot more unreliable, which created more chances for "non-turbos" to beat them with consistency.

But as since 1983-4 turbo engines started dominating, then sadly it marked the end for those legendary tight championship battles.

[trumperZ06]

You use Aerodynamics to generate.... downforce. You use Speed creating air pressure... to push against the Aerodynamic devices. If you reduce speed the downforce quickly dis-appears... greatly reducing traction... which reduces your cornering ability.

Cars with less aero than Formula 1 use...

Late braking as you are approaching the corner... and then trail braking (allows you to carry more speed at corner entry & helps to rotate the car), this works well for sportscars including ALMS LP1...

For example... McNish trail-brakes the Hell out of the Audi at Sebring, and Sebring is a high horsepower track.

But this is opposite the technique to that used in F-1.... which uses high entry speeds, high cornering speeds, both enabled by the areo generated downforce, and electronic traction control for accelerating out of the corners.

In Formula 1, unless the lead driver makes a mistake, it's hard for even a driver with a faster car to make a pass in the corners. Now add groved tires which are far more "skitterish" when subjected to large slip angles... compared to full "slicks"... and you see even more complications.

[tinchote]

I'd like to add one more explanation to your early 80s tight championship battles. Then we had competition between turbo and non-turbo engines and at that time turbo engines were not unbeatable in overall yet. It meant that turbo-powered cars won usually on faster circuits and non-turbos on twistier circuits. And of course the more powerful turbos were a lot more unreliable, which created more chances for "non-turbos" to beat them with consistency.

Let me add to that that in those times there were frequent changes of rules, even during the season, and other situations that changed who was in position of dominating a race (some examples: no skirts from 81-82, then Gordon Murray comes with the hydropneumatic suspension, which ends up banned soon after; also consider the appearance of the Lotus 88, which was protested by the other teams without specifying which rule it was violating, and the protest was accepted and the car banned without ever stating which rule was being violated; changes of tyre provider in the middle of the season; a race declared invalid after it was raced; boycotts to races in the middle of the FISA-FOCA war).

[wedge]

To a certain degree I would disagree with you, trumperZ06.

Today's cars produce so much grip from the tyres and aero, and thanks to carbon brakes and semi-auto transmission you brake so deep into the corners.

There was an article in F1 Racing magazine not so long ago where Christian drove a Super Aguri. He said modern F1 cars are so easy to drive because you simply left-brake as close to the apex as you dare and press hard on the throttle.

Depending on a driver's driving style it is still possible to trail brake in F1 cars.

Just like Senna mastering a turbo-F1 car with superb co-ordination, Schumi mastered the art of left-foot braking by dancing on the brake and throttle like a tap dancer. He loves his karting and he was one of those drivers who braked extremely late and flicked the kart into the apex. Its quite obvious he refined those techniques for F1. Schumi likes a bit of oversteer, can drive on the limit, great car control - its no wonder an F1 driver like him and can afford to trail brake into corners.

[trumperZ06]

Wedge.... there is a HUGE difference between... Trail braking and what Schui was doing...

MS was left-foot braking and using his right foot for... maintainance throttle!!!

Trail braking... hard on the brakes at corner entry (no throttle moderation), gradually reducing the braking force while increasing cornering angle, rotating the car down to the apex. If your really good... you can start adding throttle well before hitting the apex... but after you have completed trail braking.

We have DAS charts showing that... MS was using both braking & throttle moderation... ie. balancing the car in mid-corner...
enabling him to carry higher entry and especially... mid corner speeds.

Almost all the F-1 drivers at the top level can late brake to corner entry, and accelerate flat out from apex to track out ( remember they have traction control systems), it was the speed MS was able to carry in mid corner... that seperated him from the pack.

Rubens tried left foot braking early in his Ferrari F-1 days... but RB was never able to work it well. Even though Rubens started in carting, which easily allows left foot braking, he never has been very good at left foot braking in an F-1 machine.

We also have DAS comparing MS's cornering technique ie. left foot braking/right foot throttle vs. Rubens... who takes his right foot off the throttle to brake. MS was consistantly faster in mid corner thoughout their days... driving identical Ferrari's.

Oh... and high aero downforce requires greater speed than you would see at the apex... using trailing throttle to rotate the car. In fact... lift throttle "over-steer" works much better in an F-1 machine. Lift-throttle over-steer enables you to rotate the car without scubbing off speed.

Without the F-1 Aerodynamic systems.... F-1 cars would probably be driven simular to sportscars ie. using a lot of trail braking... (we also use lift throttle oversteer... but not nearly as often), but with F-1's superb Aero... this simply is not the case. Your goal with an F-1 machine... keep the downforce working by mininizing airflow disruption.

Cya @ the track,

Trumper

[BeansBeansBeans]

Mansell absolutely hated driving the first of the Williams with Active Suspension and Semi-Automatic Gearbox. He thought it was completely useless because it was they very unreliable and kept braking down, whereas Patrick Head wanted Mansell to persevere with it so they could develop the system.

Yes, as I recall, Mansell retired from the first 4 Grands Prix of 1991, allowing Senna to build up a cushion in the Championship. Still, as you say, they persevered, and came good in 1992.

[wedge]

Wedge.... there is a HUGE difference between... Trail braking and what Schui was doing...

MS was left-foot braking and using his right foot for... maintainance throttle!!!

Trail braking... hard on the brakes at corner entry (no throttle moderation), gradually reducing the braking force while increasing cornering angle, rotating the car down to the apex. If your really good... you can start adding throttle well before hitting the apex... but after you have completed trail braking.

We have DAS charts showing that... MS was using both braking & throttle moderation... ie. balancing the car in mid-corner...
enabling him to carry higher entry and especially... mid corner speeds.

I knew this too.

I do remember F1 Racing did an article covering his driving technique in the late 90s. They had access to data from the Belgium GP.

Schumi uses that technique on the mid to hi-speed corners where he taps the brakes and 'caresses' the throttle at mid-corner. (The article mentioned Pouhon and Stavelot where he impressively used this technique)

It was in the low speed, hairpin-type corners such as La Source,where Schumi braked awefully deep, point the car onto the apex and slam the throttle. In the low speed corners you're having to rely more on mechanical grip rather than aero.

I'm pretty sure he was trail-braking.

Seriously, I'm not making any of this up. In the mid-late 90s I was absolutely fascinated by Schumi's technique, I wanted to understand why he was regarded as superior.

Sadly I've thrown this particular issue away so it would help if any of you have back issues!

[markhuebbe]

I expect BMW to play an important role in the championship as they'll take away some vital points.

I couldn't agree more. But I hope my boy Heidfeld might make it interesting this year.