F1 historic Bits 'n' Piece's

[Mintexmemory]

It's perhaps worth mentioning that many (most?) UK motorsport amateur competitors utterly loath football/soccer. It's mostly to do with the publicity it got/gets when motorsport doesn't and probably a bit of a class thing too. Only in later years has football (soccer and rugby league but not rugby union) become "mainstream" in the UK as opposed to being a "working class" sport. UK Motorsport, on the other hand, has an image of "middle/upper class" participation. That goes for much of Europe too - but not the USA, where most motorsport is considered by some there as a "downmarket" sport like baseball.

Woooah, beware of sweeping generalisations.
UK track racing has a middle / upper class, maybe urban, image.
Rallying has had a predominantly rural, classless following. Even a number of the wealthier exponents delight in a certain absence of 'couth'
Most of my friends and acquaintances that are into motorsport also have local soccer alleigances and have done so for many years.
It is fair to say that those who are into track racing often eschew any other sporting past time.

Now if you are talking about the USA there are two distinct streams of development - the rich euro-phile Californian scene and the NASCAR / County fair dirt race, yee-hah schtick. Gurney, Revson, Gregory et al were hardly 'downmarket' To this day LM (and previously Can-AM) in the states is very much more refined than NASCAR with Indy falling somewhere between. Though,clearly NASCAR has the major following to support your statement. I was always under the impression that Baseball had a classless following given the amount of literature and cinema devoted to it.

[FAL]

Your picture is the exception, not mine. Don't confuse spectators of road rallying in the depths of Wales with participants in rallying in the UK in general. The duffel coat/bobble hat rallying image of the 50s England concealed a whole raft of university educated navigators (at a time when few went to uni).
The rest of Europe is even further towards rallying being in the same monied category as racing.
Have you lived in the USA? Have you experienced the appalled expressions, particularly in the populous/opinion forming North East, if you admit to "driving race cars"? I have.
In 47 years around UK rallying, I can't think of one friend/aquaintance who didn't hate football.

[Mintexmemory]

Your picture is the exception, not mine. Don't confuse spectators of road rallying in the depths of Wales with participants in rallying in the UK in general. The duffel coat/bobble hat rallying image of the 50s England concealed a whole raft of university educated navigators (at a time when few went to uni).

50s England was a very long time ago, when rallying was little more than a gentleman's excuse for a long distance thrash with a bloody good dinner at the end of it. So no wonder that the navs were uni-educated. TImes have changed and rallying, post Mini and Escort, is probably the most egalatarian form of motor sport (banger racing omitted) -all you need is cash (to quote the Ruttles).

Have you lived in the USA? Have you experienced the appalled expressions, particularly in the populous/opinion forming North East, if you admit to "driving race cars"? I have.

Ah well, tennis , golf, polo, Americas Cup yachting and long-distance snobbery are hard to displace as the main stream sporting activities of WASP culture. Might I suggest that the NE of the States is rather more insular than Californian society - Mr Capps an opinion please.

In 47 years around UK rallying, I can't think of one friend/aquaintance who didn't hate football.

In 45 years around UK Motorsport (only 37 rallying, so I've not gone as high up the wall there) I have yet to come across a friend / acquaintance who does hate football. Some had no particular interest, but that's a different matter. Perhaps we just gravitate towards like-minded people.

[FAL]

To get back to the topic, instead of playing along with your attempts to score points, I don't even have relatives, friends or acquaintances OUTSIDE rallying, leave alone inside, who like football (oh, sorry, there is one, met through speed hillclimbing...). It's a myth promoted by the media that everyone in nthe UK likes to watch 22 bags of wind kicking around another bag of wind.

I'm sure those who struggle to re-create 50s rallying via RoTT, Le Jog etc. will be pleased to learn you think culinary results are the point of the exercise. Rallying DID once move away from elitism but it's ludicrous to suggest it hasn't long ago (30 years at least?) drifted back into a sport (like circuit racing and even the urban short oval and rural autograss worlds) for those with far too much money to burn.

[steveaki13]

I may have missed something obvious, but I was watching the 2002 European Grand Prix, it came a few races after Austria 02. The infamous Ferrari switch. The Ferrari team were just about to go into a hearing about the race in Austria and messing up podium procedure.

Anyway in Europe 2002 Barrichello finally won a race. In case no one remembers I will just remind you of what happened.
Barrichello & Schumi were 3rd and 4th on the grid behind the two Williams. They ran a 2 stop strategy and passed the Williams in the first couple of laps, they were 2 seconds a lap quicker than anyone else and were soon 40 seconds up the road.
Schumi then lost 10 seconds by spinning. By the end Barrichello won by 0.2 from Schumi.

I was wondering when re watching it if all was as it seems.

I mean with said hearing coming up, the Ferrari team would probably like Barrichello to win a race, and I was wondering if Schumi spun it on purpose?

I mean it was just before a stop and I wonder whether as Schumi looked quicker, whether to save him getting ahead during the stops if Rubens had a little problem that Schumi spun to give Rubens some breathing space.

He then gained back the 10 seconds so was definitely quicker and whether that was a sneaky way to make sure of the 1-2 and make it look convincing.

The fact that Nurburgring only had 2 run off's then and Schumi spun off onto one of them also made me wonder. After all it was an uncharacteristic error from Michael.

In a similar way to Chinese Qualifying 2004 when he spun to start last.

*Cue you all telling me this is a well known fact and that I have completely missed it.

[anfield5]

I may have missed something obvious, but I was watching the 2002 European Grand Prix, it came a few races after Austria 02. The infamous Ferrari switch. The Ferrari team were just about to go into a hearing about the race in Austria and messing up podium procedure.

Anyway in Europe 2002 Barrichello finally won a race. In case no one remembers I will just remind you of what happened.
Barrichello & Schumi were 3rd and 4th on the grid behind the two Williams. They ran a 2 stop strategy and passed the Williams in the first couple of laps, they were 2 seconds a lap quicker than anyone else and were soon 40 seconds up the road.
Schumi then lost 10 seconds by spinning. By the end Barrichello won by 0.2 from Schumi.

I was wondering when re watching it if all was as it seems.

I mean with said hearing coming up, the Ferrari team would probably like Barrichello to win a race, and I was wondering if Schumi spun it on purpose?

I mean it was just before a stop and I wonder whether as Schumi looked quicker, whether to save him getting ahead during the stops if Rubens had a little problem that Schumi spun to give Rubens some breathing space.

He then gained back the 10 seconds so was definitely quicker and whether that was a sneaky way to make sure of the 1-2 and make it look convincing.

The fact that Nurburgring only had 2 run off's then and Schumi spun off onto one of them also made me wonder. After all it was an uncharacteristic error from Michael.

In a similar way to Chinese Qualifying 2004 when he spun to start last.

*Cue you all telling me this is a well known fact and that I have completely missed it.

Possibly too elaborate to be a purposeful plot. Team order were banned at the time, but there has never been anything stopping one driver from intentionally allowing a team mate to win. It was perfectly legal for Schumi to wave Ruebens past, if it was his doing and not an instruction from the team, so if Ruebens had lost out in a pit stop Schuimi could easily have let him back past without making look as obvious as pulling over and waving him through. But who really knows.....?

[steveaki13]

Team Orders were not banned in 2002. They became banned at the beginning of 2003 in response to Austria 2002 and the switch. Nothing like team orders had ever been banned before 2002, as F1 was in its traditional motorsport time line. Only 2003 and after have all the rule tweaks and changes happened.

The race in question was only a couple after the legendary switch. I think Rubens victory at Nurburgring was very timely as it came days before the hearing over the Austria-Gate

[anfield5]

Team Orders were not banned in 2002. They became banned at the beginning of 2003 in response to Austria 2002 and the switch. Nothing like team orders had ever been banned before 2002, as F1 was in its traditional motorsport time line. Only 2003 and after have all the rule tweaks and changes happened.

The race in question was only a couple after the legendary switch. I think Rubens victory at Nurburgring was very timely as it came days before the hearing over the Austria-Gate

Quite correct with the dates Steve (oops ) they were merely frowned upon after Austria. Which was silly as F1 is a team sport. I agree that it was amazingly coincidental that Ruebens won the German race, but I still don't think that even a driver of Schumi's ability would spin intentionally, but as I said who knows? On a different forum I used to be on I was one of many who insisted Piquet Jnr absolutely didn't intentionally crash in Singapore - so what would I know?

[steveaki13]

On a different forum I used to be on I was one of many who insisted Piquet Jnr absolutely didn't intentionally crash in Singapore - so what would I know?

I don't think anyone thought that was the case until stuff started coming out some time later. Its one of the most shameful and horrible moments in F1 history. I for one didn't believe it until it became pretty clear.

[anfield5]

Quite. Let's hope Piquet really junior (Pedro - Nelson Snr's youngest son) has more integrity and common sense. He was in NZ this summer to race in the Toyota Racing Series and did very well considering he is only 15, finishing close to the top ten in all 6 of his races